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Caput Mundi
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PostSubject: tessera del tifoso   Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:04 pm

can Ermetico or someone else in the know please explain what the implications of this will be for those of us who live outside Italia, and only visit every few years. does this mean, when I next come back to Italy, I won't be able to go to watch Lazio play, or travel to away games???

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PostSubject: Re: tessera del tifoso   Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:13 pm

c. testa wrote:
can Ermetico or someone else in the know please explain what the implications of this will be for those of us who live outside Italia, and only visit every few years. does this mean, when I next come back to Italy, I won't be able to go to watch Lazio play, or travel to away games???

Unless you were ever banned from Italian stadiums in the past, there's no problem for foreign fans, as far as I know. It is however a problem for those who have had a stadium ban in the past, because they won't be able to enter the stadium again.

NO ALLA TESSERA DEL TIFOSO!
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Caput Mundi
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PostSubject: Re: tessera del tifoso   Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:23 pm

Lucky Strike wrote:
c. testa wrote:
can Ermetico or someone else in the know please explain what the implications of this will be for those of us who live outside Italia, and only visit every few years. does this mean, when I next come back to Italy, I won't be able to go to watch Lazio play, or travel to away games???

Unless you were ever banned from Italian stadiums in the past, there's no problem for foreign fans, as far as I know. It is however a problem for those who have had a stadium ban in the past, because they won't be able to enter the stadium again.

NO ALLA TESSERA DEL TIFOSO!

I'm considering going to Italy early 2010. Will I need to apply for one of these tessere?? or will I just be let into the stadium?? I just read an article stating that to enter the Olimpico from January onwards, the tessera will be a required document.

personally the whole system seems very disorganised, confusing and poorly planned. Not that I expect any better of Italy.

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Il Capitano
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PostSubject: Re: tessera del tifoso   Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:24 pm

The tessera di tifoso is one of the best things happening to Italian football lately. Families with kids can now be sure that less idiots will get into the stadium so they can go to the stadium alltogether and enjoy a nice game of football.
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PostSubject: Re: tessera del tifoso   Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:49 pm

Il Capitano wrote:
The tessera di tifoso is one of the best things happening to Italian football lately. Families with kids can now be sure that less idiots will get into the stadium so they can go to the stadium alltogether and enjoy a nice game of football.

Amen!
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PostSubject: Re: tessera del tifoso   Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:55 pm

Lucky Strike wrote:
c. testa wrote:
can Ermetico or someone else in the know please explain what the implications of this will be for those of us who live outside Italia, and only visit every few years. does this mean, when I next come back to Italy, I won't be able to go to watch Lazio play, or travel to away games???

Unless you were ever banned from Italian stadiums in the past, there's no problem for foreign fans, as far as I know. It is however a problem for those who have had a stadium ban in the past, because they won't be able to enter the stadium again.

NO ALLA TESSERA DEL TIFOSO!

Not sure here whether its designed only to catch prev offenders. May also be for certain groups with a) history of hooliganism, b) means to get dangerous items in stadiums, c) association with known criminal gangs or other banned groups.

Maybe someone can stop shouting "No alla tessera" long enough to explain properly (from the perspective of the enforcers), what is the comprehensive reasoning for this......
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Ermetico
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PostSubject: Re: tessera del tifoso   Wed Sep 09, 2009 1:16 am

I was ready to open this topic with someone help ( english and tecnical explanation) cause this Tessera " badge already made confusion and disappoint many people up to our National coach Mr Lippi.
Arguments between fans and non fans are mainly on the mission of this badge and what , or how, this could really effect on the Italian soccer and stadium fans presence.

what is this TESSERA del tifoso?
The Tessera is a badge that allow the owner to get benefits as: priority for tikets line and seats, discounts on merchandising, but after all this , sorry, bull s...aloud you Fan to see the match.
The point is that the Tessera is like a "permission " or a proof of vergin supporter.
Infact the tessera is released only after approval of Cops.
If you , after application, are recognized to be under the DASPO ( stats that you have been judged for some violence in the stadium) or any official judgement about dangerous facts, you will not obtain the Tessera and so, even if the Daspo is already end up u still are OUT.

La tessera is nothing else that a perfect Database of all of us. No matter if you are good or bad. No matter if you have been a bad guy 10 years ago. we are under control.

The funny thing is that if you, 20 years ago, committed a homicide the Tessera will be OK!

As you can read there are still too many points of discussion and everyone , from good to bad people are really disappointed in one side or another.
Infact this tessera , or system , will not insure you that the stadium will be more safe from riots or violent issues!

Then, about you my friends, i really hope to get more informations because i can't imagine how the tiket office can deny a ticket ( to buy it u must show the tessera) to a Chinese or a Canadin turist visiting th city and , in occurance, watching a match ( roma o Lazio o Milan o Inter) for passion or simpkle curiosity.

For sure i can't get more then 500 Tessera for all of you living abroad on my name! u will be in big trouble.

seriosusly , my friends, i hope that the governance will find soon a different solution.

Personally i say: No alla tessere del tifoso yes to the soccer culture .-

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PostSubject: Re: tessera del tifoso   Wed Sep 09, 2009 1:26 am

Good, Ermetico.

Il Capitano and anyone else who might applaud this dubious scheme without question get some perspective here:

http://pitchinvasion.net/blog/2009/06/15/tessera-del-tifoso-italian-fans-face-id-check/

NO ALLA TESSERA DEL TIFOSO.
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indian_eagle
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PostSubject: Re: tessera del tifoso   Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:11 am

yeah right....

they will all CONTROL us like robots..... have a DATABASE with all our info....... sounds like we would be under a Orwellian regime.... maybe later they would hypnotize us and make us all sing the same songs...
gimme a break
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Caput Mundi
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PostSubject: Re: tessera del tifoso   Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:57 am

indian_eagle wrote:
Il Capitano wrote:
The tessera di tifoso is one of the best things happening to Italian football lately. Families with kids can now be sure that less idiots will get into the stadium so they can go to the stadium alltogether and enjoy a nice game of football.

Amen!
no.. it stops fans like myself from attending games more than troublemakers. The 'idiots' will find a way in and if they don't they'll be ready to cause trouble outside the ground. Dont let them into the stadium, they'll just ambush and attack the visiting fans.

this is borderline police state and it won't fix anything. Their aim is to simply kill the ultras and whatever makes Italian football fans special.

I can't see how anyone could think this is a good concept.

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PostSubject: Re: tessera del tifoso   Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:15 pm

61514 wrote:
Good, Ermetico.

Il Capitano and anyone else who might applaud this dubious scheme without question get some perspective here:

http://pitchinvasion.net/blog/2009/06/15/tessera-del-tifoso-italian-fans-face-id-check/

NO ALLA TESSERA DEL TIFOSO.

Thanks for the URL but if you got an Italian article for me then fine, but translated ones are, most of the time, not translated in a correct way and therefore I like to get my information from Italian sources. However, if the tessera del tifoso is not making sure that iditios or criminals stay out of the stadium then I am totally against it, also for reasons of organisation. I am sure that, if you apply from outside Italy, it would take them ages to check your apply... But, in general, I am supporting that the stadium will become a place of peace and violent-free. But, unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case here. I hope you got my point, since it is quite obvious -> NO VIOLENCE, NO POLITICS - SOLO CALCIO!
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PostSubject: Re: tessera del tifoso   Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:15 pm

police state? WTF!

Can anyone imagine a day when Italy would be a police state? Honestly....

Who would have the damn patience to control and re-organise people who are not even organized to begin with?

Next thing people would say is that Maroni is the next Mu****lini..... F**k!
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PostSubject: Re: tessera del tifoso   Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:00 pm

I've been to the Olimpico to watch Lazio post-Gabriele Sandri and post-Filippo Raciti. I was on the edge of the distinti ovest right near the Curva Nord. Next to me were young parents teaching their small children the words to so gia' du ore. Just above me was a young boy with his Dad singing Vola Lazio Vola. There was no violence to be seen and these families weren't in any way fearful. It was without doubt one of the best experiences I've had, and Lazio lost that day.

Some months later, some Roma fans stabbed the English at the Ponte Duca D'Aosta bridge. Now tell me this, the tessera del tifoso will make it harder for these families and children to access la Lazio, yet another obstacle toward purchasing a ticket. But how will the tessera stop these idiots from attacking others outside the ground??? If anything keeping the troublemakers outside the stadium will increase the number of people creating trouble for visiting fans.

The whole logic of the tessera IMO is flawed.

this is my view from outside Roma anyway, I'm sure the likes of Lucky Strike have a more accurate opinion than me.

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PostSubject: Re: tessera del tifoso   Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:07 pm

c. testa wrote:
I've been to the Olimpico to watch Lazio post-Gabriele Sandri and post-Filippo Raciti. I was on the edge of the distinti ovest right near the Curva Nord. Next to me were young parents teaching their small children the words to so gia' du ore. Just above me was a young boy with his Dad singing Vola Lazio Vola. There was no violence to be seen and these families weren't in any way fearful. It was without doubt one of the best experiences I've had, and Lazio lost that day.

Some months later, some Roma fans stabbed the English at the Ponte Duca D'Aosta bridge. Now tell me this, the tessera del tifoso will make it harder for these families and children to access la Lazio, yet another obstacle toward purchasing a ticket. But how will the tessera stop these idiots from attacking others outside the ground??? If anything keeping the troublemakers outside the stadium will increase the number of people creating trouble for visiting fans.

The whole logic of the tessera IMO is flawed.

this is my view from outside Roma anyway, I'm sure the likes of Lucky Strike have a more accurate opinion than me.

can you let me know exactly why that will be, provided these families were not involved in any violence in the past?
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PostSubject: Re: tessera del tifoso   Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:13 pm

as much as I admire the Ultras culture (which adds so much passion and colour to calcio), I still don't think of them as saintly men unlike a lot of others.....
these so-called 'troublemakers' who 'cause trouble outside the ground' --- do u think these are some random people from the street ? some random criminals with nothing better to do? do u think these people are completely separate from a Ultra group - the same Ultra group who may also support the team a lot in good ways?

I suggest that people look at the history of Ultra groups in Europe from the 1970s onward.... along with its similarities and dissimilarities to another social movement - Hooliganism....
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PostSubject: Re: tessera del tifoso   Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:38 pm

To be honest, I think to ban 'these' fans would only make matters worse. They will still hang around outside and have a point to prove by taking out their frustration. Just keep things as they are. If a fan does something crazy then ban HIM for life....simple.

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PostSubject: Re: tessera del tifoso   Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:56 pm

Giolazio wrote:
To be honest, I think to ban 'these' fans would only make matters worse. They will still hang around outside and have a point to prove by taking out their frustration. Just keep things as they are. If a fan does something crazy then ban HIM for life....simple.

and how to successfully zero in on 'HIM' , without any kind of ID?

even if they do it without any ID card, how will they prosecute him? Specially, if the CC tv cameras haven;t caught the incident?
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PostSubject: Re: tessera del tifoso   Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:01 pm

indian_eagle wrote:
Giolazio wrote:
To be honest, I think to ban 'these' fans would only make matters worse. They will still hang around outside and have a point to prove by taking out their frustration. Just keep things as they are. If a fan does something crazy then ban HIM for life....simple.

and how to successfully zero in on 'HIM' , without any kind of ID?

even if they do it without any ID card, how will they prosecute him? Specially, if the CC tv cameras haven;t caught the incident?

Well I don't think producing ID upon purchasing a ticket is a problem.

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PostSubject: Re: tessera del tifoso   Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:44 pm

Giolazio wrote:
indian_eagle wrote:
Giolazio wrote:
To be honest, I think to ban 'these' fans would only make matters worse. They will still hang around outside and have a point to prove by taking out their frustration. Just keep things as they are. If a fan does something crazy then ban HIM for life....simple.

and how to successfully zero in on 'HIM' , without any kind of ID?

even if they do it without any ID card, how will they prosecute him? Specially, if the CC tv cameras haven;t caught the incident?

Well I don't think producing ID upon purchasing a ticket is a problem.

no its not a problem, you're right. What i meant by ID is one card from the club saying that the person is free to attend matches as he has not been involved in any past violence. I did not mean just any ID. heck, just about anyone can have a driver's licence , right? Any kid with a fake ID can get booze quite easily in most countries. Very Happy

With an ID card like the one that is being proposed, chances are less that these people would get access to stadium in the first place.

what we need to understand is that now what happens - the police arrest or beat up people who cause violence, these people get thrown in jails and then again become available for the next home match (most cases).

Proper legislation which gives the power to prosecute violent fans - is what is needed. Thugs need to know they are going away for a long time if they ever decide to do anything violent.
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PostSubject: Re: tessera del tifoso   Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:30 pm

In my eyes, a football stadium is first and foremost an arena for the fans. Limiting our access is pure bullshit, and the argument that this will keep the violent fans away is even more bullshit. I am so tired of people thinking that this bloody surveillance society, which is being extended day after day, is actually to protect us. Wake up guys, this is only moving in one direction; to make the arenas an environment limited in passion. Just like in England. On a larger scale, society-wise, the development of the Orwellian society will kill all emotions, and in the end it will kill humanity...



ULTRAS LIBERI!
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PostSubject: Re: tessera del tifoso   Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:03 pm

Cash wrote:

On a larger scale, society-wise, the development of the Orwellian society will kill all emotions, and in the end it will kill humanity...



ULTRAS LIBERI!

ohh my God... the 'kill humanity' reason..... affraid

damn fine argument... bravo!
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PostSubject: Re: tessera del tifoso   Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:47 pm

Cash wrote:
In my eyes, a football stadium is first and foremost an arena for the fans. Limiting our access is pure bullshit, and the argument that this will keep the violent fans away is even more bullshit. I am so tired of people thinking that this bloody surveillance society, which is being extended day after day, is actually to protect us. Wake up guys, this is only moving in one direction; to make the arenas an environment limited in passion. Just like in England. On a larger scale, society-wise, the development of the Orwellian society will kill all emotions, and in the end it will kill humanity...



ULTRAS LIBERI!

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PostSubject: Re: tessera del tifoso   Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:57 pm

If more fans read more Orwell and spent less time contemplating how and where to kick the ass of an opposing fan, then we wouldn't have this conversation.

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PostSubject: Re: tessera del tifoso   Mon Sep 14, 2009 10:58 pm

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PostSubject: Re: tessera del tifoso   Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:31 pm

This is ridiculous if this thing passed. I agree that it will probably cause more trouble as the people who can not enter the stadium will definitely want to have their voice heard outside. If they ban hooliganism / ultras, then I am not watching calcio again... The greatest thing I love about this sport are the ultras, crazy fans, and the passion they all express. This is what drove me away from american sports as I grew up in the States. My father never watches calcio or any one in my italian-american family for that matter. It was my family in Roma which introduced it to me when I was a child. Now I am moving away from american sports, dedicating everything to soccer, and the reason for this are the ultras, watching their displays.. hearing their roars, it makes this sport 10x more exciting for me, especially growing up seeing adults watch boring ass baseball while their fat ass is on the couch drinking a beer... but this is "exciting" for Americans... i don't know why.

The first big game I've been to was the coppa Italia this year... and it was the single greatest thing I've ever done in my life thus far. As long as the passion and intensity of curva nord and the ultras stay at that level they had that day id be happy, but if they force it any lower.. i'm not sure how id feel. I was sitting in curva nord, and there were plenty of little kids with their familys. Some of them even jumped on my back when we won... I was hit in the head a bunch of times too with a flag... Somebody were in our seats because of fake tickets being sold... and in the end i couldn't be happier. But to tell you the truth, even though the display that night was fantastic... the next big game I go to I would like to see more flares, more firecrackers, and more voices being heard.
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