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 Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?

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Caxi
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PostSubject: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Sun May 09, 2010 7:36 pm

Udinese are now nothing but a formality. Rendered to an exhibition, I expect most laziali will be tuning into Serie A purely to see Inter clinch (hopefully) yet another Scudetto at the expense of Rioma. So, I don't think it is a bit early to start talking about where we messed up this season and what we can do to fix the cracks this summer.

Here are the things that I believe contributed to a poor season:

1. What was once a fortress became a circus

I don't need to be in Rome to know that something went drastically wrong at the Olimpico this season. Compare our home record from this season with recent seasons;

2009-10, 4 wins, 6 draws, 8 losses - 18 points.
2008-09, 8 wins, 4 draws, 7 losses - 28 points.
2007-08, 9 wins, 4 draws, 6 losses - 31 points.


We lost 10-13 points at home this season which we don't normally yield. Our away form has actually been impressive and suggests that had the atmosphere in the Olimpico been correct all season long, we could have been far higher up the table.

2. European competition is a curse

With one game left, look at how last season's 2nd - 6th have done this season given they had the added pressure of European competition;

Juventus
2009-10: 55 points.
2008-09: 74 points.
Difference: -19 points.


AC Milan
2009-10: 67 points.
2008-09: 74 points.
Difference: -7 points.


Fiorentina

2009-10: 47 points
2008-09: 68 points
Difference: -21 points.


Genoa
2009-10: 51 points
2008-09: 68 points

Difference: - 17 points.

Rioma
2009-10: 77 points.
2008-09: 63 points.
Difference: + 14 points.


There is a distinct pattern when you look above. The drop in points is drastic for all but Rioma; who underachieved last season with their off-field turmoil and having reacted quickly to the problems, they found themselves flying high again. The others all plummeted. Palermo, Sampdoria and Napoli have all managed to reap the benefits. Incidentally, they also made strategic coaching appointments that happened to pay dividends. Have we found our man in Reja?

3. Has it been a bad season after all?

Seriously, has it? We currently sit on 43 points but a win against Udinese next weekend could see us finish the season in 12th with 46 points; an identical standing to 2008-09 and only 4 points and 2 positions off where we finished last season. Of course, we don't have a Coppa Italia to show for our exploits this year but with Europa League endeavours and woeful home form, have we really done all that badly?

4. The dissidenti

People said Pandev was irreplaceable. People held a burning hatred for Ledesma. Well, let me point out a few facts. Prior to his reintegration, this is the points average of Lazio when Ledesma played to when he didn't feature.

Lazio pts. average when Ledesma plays: 1.61
Lazio pts. average when Ledesma is out: 1.15


In other words, we lose almost 0.5 points on average when Cristian is at home. That equates to 6-7 points in a season. So, you could say that we lost a good 3-4 points by leaving him out from September - January. It could easily be argued that he alone is the difference between this season and last.

Have we missed Pandev? I don't see how. Zarate has scored 10 league goals less than last season and compensating for that has been Floccari. Therefore, I would argue that Floccari has done in 4 months what Goran usually does in 8. Sergio has arguably been a far better player in our shirt than Goran ever has.

- - - - -

So, I'm going to put it out there and say this season has been no worse than previous seasons, that our squad is no worse than previous seasons and I'm going to stick my neck on the line and say that if the atmosphere in the Olimpico improves, if Edy Reja stays, if the squad stays relatively the same in quality, then without Europa League, we will finish in the Top 8 next season.

One good summer and we can be a hopeful bunch.


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ilsemprelaziale
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Sun May 09, 2010 8:26 pm

It's definetly 100% correct that Olimpico hasn't been a fortress this year and that this is something which has to change next season. Part of being a top team is being close to unbeatable at home.

I think there's a lot of reasons why we aren't good at home. Lots of tension at the stands due to constant protests against Lotito, much bigger pressure on the players when they play at home and also the fact that the teams that come to Olimpico and play us now, aren't afraid of us like they used to be.

Looking at our line up i'd say we have a pretty bad team and if I was managing a top 12 team in the league I would have no problems with telling my squad to attack and pressure Lazio all the time. It didn't used to be this way, most teams would come to Olimpico and just sit back and defend and have a lot of respect/fear of our attacks.

We need new and better players who can put constant pressure on our opposition. The current team is not good enough and if we don't get players that can lift our game then next year we will end midtable or worse again, it's as simple as that. Don't expect miracles from a mediocre team.
We need either a new president or at least a better atmosphere in the Olimpico. Most Lazio fans hate Lotito and I don't think the atmosphere will get better until he leaves
sadly.

And yes for crying out loud, Lotito HAS to get Ledesma to extend his contract!
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zoran
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Sun May 09, 2010 9:28 pm

glad to see that this season is over...i think this is the most terrible season ive seen since i start to watch Lazio in 98'....
in the last game i expect from the players to left their heart on the field, to show their best game and to prove that they deserve to wear Lazio shirt for the next season...

and of course all wrong start with Lotitos stupid politics about Pandev,Ledesma,De Silvestri.....

...than we start to play the most stupid old age tactic ive seen - tactic for teams which r playing just for survival in the league and nothing more.

....for the next season we should reinstall the whole club politics and squad.
..we don't need in the first squad more than 23 players and btw at least 6 of them should be from the youth team.
..the only players i think should stay r : Zarate (and maybe Floccari), Radu, Dias, (maybe Lichtsteiner) and Kolarov - which also he should get new big contract and offer to be the Capitan (also can stay Rocchi but only because he scored many goals for Lazio in the past and because he is Italian. all others i think that can be replaceable with not big value of money....
....also very important is to come new coach(younger age), and at least new sports director...
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Conn
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Sun May 09, 2010 9:43 pm

Caxi wrote:

We lost 10-13 points at home this season which we don't normally yield. Our away form has actually been impressive and suggests that had the atmosphere in the Olimpico been correct all season long, we could have been far higher up the table.


ilsemprelaziale wrote:

It's definetly 100% correct that Olimpico hasn't been a fortress this year and that this is something which has to change next season. Part of being a top team is being close to unbeatable at home.


Statistics is a powerful tool, but using it lightly can be dangerous. In the case at hand, you are using the average stats to blame the "atmosphere at Olimpico". An econometrician would immediately see that yours is a rather sloppy conclusion, affected by a problem known in the literature as "omitted variables bias" (the Ballardini variable, in your case, and the level of the teams faced).

If next sunday we beat Udinese, Edy Reja will have achieved 8 points out of 7 matches at Olimpico. Last season, when you might claim that the "atmosphere" was "not that bad", against the same bunch of teams faced by Reja (and choosing Atalanta to replace Bari, as the table suggests), Delio Rossi achieved 9 points out of 7 matches. An econometrician could use this evidence to say that, had we signed Reja since the beginning, the home performance would have been about the same as last year (with the caveat that the inference is made using a small number of observations LOL). There would be "no Olimpico effect".

Said this, the statistics have many interesting things to say, and you pointed out many. But you forgot (?) the most important one: since lotito took over, we have always played very mediocre seasons, with a notable "outlier" exception in the after-calciopoli league.

After this season, Laziali will divide into two categories: those who will be happy to finish 8th in the next season, as you predict, and will renew their season ticket and keep going; and those who have really enough of lotito and will not renew the season ticket, and will keep protesting to get rid of him. If you think that this year Olimpico atmosphere was strange, wait to see next year's.

I belong to the second group. Lotito vattene!
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Caxi
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Sun May 09, 2010 9:52 pm

Of course there are other factors, I simply highlighted the ones that struck a chord with me. I tried to avoid half-season stats where possible but you're right, Reja's home record won't be too bad if we win next weekend.

Mediocre seasons under Lotito is normative. However, I don't think our squad is mediocre.

Muslera - one of the highest-rated 'keepers in Serie A.
Kolarov - rumours linking him to what is probably the best in Italy, Europe and the World says it all.
Radu - best player of the season?
Dias - widely regarded as the best CB playing in South America prior to his move here.
Lichtsteiner - Consistent and has held his own in CL and National team.
Mauri - has Azzurri caps and shown glimpses of such form.
Matuzalem - was Shakhtar Donets'k's best player not so long ago.
Ledesma - the heartbeat of the side, proven quality.
Brocchi - CL winner.
Floccari - Clinical goalscorer, one of the best in A.
Zarate - Apparently worth 20 million euro.
Rocchi - The captain, frequent goalscorer.


That team there looks a lot better than Samp on paper, per se. Look where they are. Now, that's only 13 players and we are probably 5 or so away from having a team that can regularly make Top 8. However, with everything in its right place, you would be thinking that side has the quality to launch an assault on the Top 4. So why are we fighting off relegation?

I refuse to buy the "our squad is mediocre" argument...

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Conn
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Sun May 09, 2010 10:33 pm

Caxi wrote:
Of course there are other factors, I simply highlighted the ones that struck a chord with me.


I understand Caxi, they are striking indeed. But, as I said, it's not correct to blame the "Olimpico atmosphere" on the basis of that numbers. However, more than noticing that it is "not statistically sound", reading that the fans are targeted as one of the causes of our shitty season, makes me sad. And I'll tell you why. I go off topic for a second.

It's the fans who, when the times got tough, supported the team away in thousands in important matches such as Sampdoria and Genoa (12 hours round trip) and Bologna. In hundreds at Cagliari (one day trip).

It's the fans who put their face to display clearly lotito as a social problem, trying their best to involve the Rome city council, politicians, risking and messing up against Bari. It's the fans that gathered thousands of signatures to stop lotito's speculative project, the only thing that keeps the pig linked to Lazio.

It's the fans who put their face to avoid asroma to win the scudetto, turning the city into a hell for months and months, and this season as one of the worst ever. According to several media (I don't agree but I gladly take the merit) it's the tension that followed Lazio-Inter that caused asroma players to lose nerves against Inter, losing the Coppa Italia.

Clearly talking about the fans is a delicate matter and it's impossible to reach a full agreement. But, at least, they do deserve their efforts to be recognized, and not bashed with no reason. Of course they have made mistakes, as everyone, but their, our attitude in the Curva is always meant to be for the sake of Lazio and her fans.

This is what I wanted to say, and not I will leave this thread. Nor that it is not insightful, because it is actually. But to me, Lazio will always remain a mediocre team, with lotito. So I prefer 100 times to spend my energy in trying to understand our real chances to get rid of the evil, rather than trying to guess next year championship performance.
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Henrik
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Sun May 09, 2010 10:59 pm

Agree Conn. Grazie Curva Nord.
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Sile
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Sun May 09, 2010 11:11 pm

By sticking to a part of Caxi's argument you totally overlooked everything else he wrote in his quality post.

Let's not make this another discussion about CN but about why this season there have been so many dips in form in certain players.

For me, the majority of blame lies within the utterly disastrous coach in the first part of the season. Reja very well saved us from relegation. A better coach from the start would see us in the upper part of the table.

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Lucky Strike
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Sun May 09, 2010 11:13 pm

Where did it all go wrong.............................



I agree with Conn, as always really.

@ Caxi.

"Had the atmosphere in the Olimpico been correct all season long, we could have been far higher up the table"?

What do you mean with correct exactly, if I may ask. And how far higher up do you think we could have been, with that correct atmoshpere? And thirdly, do you honestly believe that this is one of the root causes for this horrible season, a bad atmosphere (in your eyes) at home games?

I say and ask this with all due respect, Caxi, I find it interesting to see other people's opinions. I mean no sarcasm whatsoever, I'm just curious.
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Sile
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Sun May 09, 2010 11:19 pm

Jesus people, the poor home form is just one of the four reasons he believes to be the problem.

We are the only team in the league (or one of the few) to collect more points away than home. This season there were more ppl in the stands than last (if stats are to be believed) and if we agree that the atmosphere wasn't the issue then what was it? Suggestions? Opinions?

Ballardini fucked us up badly, and he messed with the minds of key players. Omitting Ledesma was also a terrible idea (credit to baronio who stepped up), and all the formation and tactical changes frustrated the players.

Reja came, said the team will play 3-5-2, made the selection of first 11 and stuck by it, ultimately saving us, without much service by Meghni, Zarate, Matuzalem or Foggia. The guy helped us where Ballardini failed.

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Conn
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Sun May 09, 2010 11:45 pm

Sile wrote:
By sticking to a part of Caxi's argument you totally overlooked everything else he wrote in his quality post.


Sile, I did not overlook anything and I've acknowledged Caxi's post is actually insightful.

I posted because I found both not correct and not fair one of the points. The one that touched me directly. Namely, the impact of the "Olimpico atmosphere". I think I've explained my reasons, and I also think Caxi agreed with me (it would be strange, but I hope he did Very Happy )

About the other insightful things, I have not touched them. But there is no overlooking. Simply, as I said, I don't care, I am discouraged, I'm tired, I'm exhausted. I firmly believe things will not change with lotito so to me there is no point in talking about team form and players performances.
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Lucky Strike
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Sun May 09, 2010 11:56 pm

First of all, respect for the effort you put in your post, Caxi. However, I think you might be looking at the wrong issues. Here's my opinion.

Obviously there's not just one main reason for this horrible season, it's a combination of so many things - but I believe the root cause is Lotito. You talk about our home record, you talk about the atmosphere, but I think you have to look deeper than that. What's the cause of an arguably bad or strange atmoshpere. What's the cause of the bad home record. You said - if atmosphere would have been better - we'd be higher up the table. I say, if management would have been better, if the transfers would have been better, we'd be higher up the table.

Secondly, although it's quite a common thing - as you pointed out with your data - that a European campaign does have effect on a team's results in the league, again I don't believe this is one the main issues why this season has been so bad. Furthermore I'm afraid you look at those numbers too much. You have a point, of course, when you say that we're not that far behind an almost European spot, but that's not really what this is about. We've lost at home against teams we should never lose to. And it's not just that, it's the way in which we lost. I've seen matches this season I honestly believe(d) were sold/fixed, because there was no willingness whatsoever to win, despite the fans' support. You talk about Ledesma, you talk about Pandev - both very good players we've obviously missed for so long. One of them is gone forever. What's the cause of this.

For me, and so many others, the cause is not the injured Matuzalem or the selfish Zarate or the protest against Lotito or the bad luck or the poor coach or the whatever-the-fuck. It's Lotito. I'm not saying every single detail that went wrong is his fault, but he is - without a doubt - the main reason why this season most things (and in the previous ones) went wrong and turned into smelling as.

As Laziale, you get used to it. We've lost so many matches, we've lost the derby one too many times, we've had our fanbase divided, we've had horrible times, we've seen Gabriele leave our terraces and go into heaven to join the other ultras, we've seen injustice - also one too many times - but we hold our heads up high. We are Laziali, and that is what makes us so special. We fight for our history and colours, no matter what. We're consistent and determined. Lotito is a disease that has to leave our Lazio, it's as simple as that.
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Lucky Strike
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Mon May 10, 2010 12:16 am

Conn wrote:
Sile wrote:
By sticking to a part of Caxi's argument you totally overlooked everything else he wrote in his quality post.


Sile, I did not overlook anything and I've acknowledged Caxi's post is actually insightful.

I posted because I found both not correct and not fair one of the points. The one that touched me directly. Namely, the impact of the "Olimpico atmosphere". I think I've explained my reasons, and I also think Caxi agreed with me (it would be strange, but I hope he did Very Happy )

About the other insightful things, I have not touched them. But there is no overlooking. Simply, as I said, I don't care, I am discouraged, I'm tired, I'm exhausted. I firmly believe things will not change with lotito so to me there is no point in talking about team form and players performances.

Boh, just spent half 'n' hour typing up my post, where these two sentences really say everything I wanted to say.
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Conn
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Mon May 10, 2010 12:32 am

Lucky Strike wrote:


Boh, just spent half 'n' hour typing up my post, where these two sentences really say everything I wanted to say.

ahahah Very Happy Actually I wanted to articulate it more, so I am glad you took the effort to do it. And it's always a pleasure reading your posts, Lucky
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Mon May 10, 2010 12:32 am

Appointing a poor manager when we had stability.The rest just fell into place from thereon
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Sile
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Mon May 10, 2010 1:06 am

It's an enchanted circle.

If it weren't for Lotito then the fans would spend more time chanting Lazio songs than "Lotito vattene". This way the frustration with the management and a couple of poor results transfers on to the players and that's when sh1t really hits the fan. Which results in more "Lotito vattene" chants, which results in more nervous performances, which results in a poor home form.

So yes, the roots to all problems can always be traced back to Lotito. But apart from the dick being in charge there are other factors to be considered. Players and coach can not just transfer the blame on to the president, they have to do their job that they are paid for, and we are trying to figure out why they failed so miserably in doing so.

This is my honest opinion, in a nutshell.

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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Mon May 10, 2010 1:43 am

Sile wrote:
It's an enchanted circle.

If it weren't for Lotito then the fans would spend more time chanting Lazio songs than "Lotito vattene". This way the frustration with the management and a couple of poor results transfers on to the players and that's when sh1t really hits the fan. Which results in more "Lotito vattene" chants, which results in more nervous performances, which results in a poor home form.

Ok. If you would count - literally - the amount of songs sang for our Lazio as opposed to those against Lotito (especially since BN took over the Curva Nord), you'd find that the vast majority of songs is sang to support the team and to proudly express the strong feelings of love for the one and only club in Rome, SS Lazio. Anyway, you say it yourself - "if it weren't for Lotito". These people have every reason to show their disgust to that man, every single reason. And come on, nervous performances? These are professionals, paid hundreds of thousands of euros a year, and they can't handle a song - they probably don't even hear or understand - against the president, which is really an ongoing war between him and ultras?! Give me a break, please.

Quote :
So yes, the roots to all problems can always be traced back to Lotito. But apart from the dick being in charge there are other factors to be considered. Players and coach can not just transfer the blame on to the president, they have to do their job that they are paid for, and we are trying to figure out why they failed so miserably in doing so.

Of course, but what is the reason we had to miss Pandev, and Ledesma, for so long, in times we really, really, really needed them? What is the reason people have left, and other - mediocre ones - have come?
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El Weninho
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Mon May 10, 2010 2:42 am

First of all: we're safe. We once again won a difficult battle in our history. It's during crazy weeks like this that you're reminded of what it means to be a Laziale. I've fullfilled my promise to myself (after the Bari game) not to critisize anyone or anything until the contract was safe. Now I'm just extremely proud to be able to share this relief with Laziali like you. Grateful for beeing born biancoceleste. The only thing I regret is not doing everything in my power to be able to get to Rome for Lazio-Inter.

I could really use some days off right now but I felt I had to reply to a great post like this. I appreciate the stats, Caxi. You make some points and you made me see some things from a different perspective. Thanks for that.

My opinion: usually I try to avoid pointing the finger at one singe person or one single problem. But this situation is special. Just like Conn and LS I will continue to argue that the management is the root to almost everything. Nothing will ever change as long as the management of SS Lazio is the same. Sure, Lotito has done some things better then others, just like there are of course other things that has contributed to this situation, but in the end everything comes down to some major issues that he created by himself:

- The crack between the supporters, caused by him failing to understand what Lazialitá is.
- A sensation of not being allowed to dream, fallowing his statements and actions.

And more accurate:

- Bad mercato's fallowing his reputation in Italy.
- Bad atmopshere in the squad fallowing the size of it, which is caused by his contract/renewing policy.
- An unbalanced squad fallowing the limited football competence of our diesse.
- An uneccesary relegation battle fallowing his stubborness and personal pride.
- Countless of conflicts with players fallowing his personal pride.

Those are just a few examples. I believe that absolutely nothing fundamental will change. Even if Reja stays, he has to work with a squad that very well might be 45 players this summer. And it's not like some quality players will come and fix it. It's impossible for a manager to work like that. And Lazio have had this problem every single summer since we finished third in Serie A.

If the protests in Olimpico would mean ten points less (which I by the way doubt) I'd still have no problems accepting it. Sure, we can try to analyze small pieces and maybe come up with 10,15 more points next season, but the real problem is obvious and has been for the last four years or so.

Sometimes it's hard not to live in Rome and be able to participate on daily basis. Noneless, my next personal battle is to free La Lazio.
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Sile
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Mon May 10, 2010 3:13 am

Lucky Strike wrote:
Sile wrote:
It's an enchanted circle.

If it weren't for Lotito then the fans would spend more time chanting Lazio songs than "Lotito vattene". This way the frustration with the management and a couple of poor results transfers on to the players and that's when sh1t really hits the fan. Which results in more "Lotito vattene" chants, which results in more nervous performances, which results in a poor home form.

Ok. If you would count - literally - the amount of songs sang for our Lazio as opposed to those against Lotito (especially since BN took over the Curva Nord), you'd find that the vast majority of songs is sang to support the team and to proudly express the strong feelings of love for the one and only club in Rome, SS Lazio. Anyway, you say it yourself - "if it weren't for Lotito". These people have every reason to show their disgust to that man, every single reason. And come on, nervous performances? These are professionals, paid hundreds of thousands of euros a year, and they can't handle a song - they probably don't even hear or understand - against the president, which is really an ongoing war between him and ultras?! Give me a break, please.

Quote :
So yes, the roots to all problems can always be traced back to Lotito. But apart from the dick being in charge there are other factors to be considered. Players and coach can not just transfer the blame on to the president, they have to do their job that they are paid for, and we are trying to figure out why they failed so miserably in doing so.

Of course, but what is the reason we had to miss Pandev, and Ledesma, for so long, in times we really, really, really needed them? What is the reason people have left, and other - mediocre ones - have come?

Ok. Whenever in the future we concede a goal, regardless of what happened (for instance Palacio's goal where haf the squad was sleeping), instead of looking on to the pitch and realizing that the players on that field fucked up, you turn your head to the VIP section of the stands and shout from the top of your lungs "Lotito vaffanculo"

Whenever we concede a goal like today from a clear offside, instead of looking on to the pitch and realizing that the referee on that field fucked up, you turn your head to the VIP section of the stands and shout from the top of your lungs "Lotito vaffanculo".

Whenever we miss a clear goalscoring chance, or a penalty, instead of looking on to the pitch and realizing that the players on that field fucked up, you turn your head to the VIP section of the stands and shout from the top of your lungs "Lotito vaffanculo".

Whenever a opposing team coach reads our game and makes a tactical switch or a substitution that opens us up like a can of beans, instead of looking on to the pitch and realizing that the players and the coach on that field fucked up, you turn your head to the VIP section of the stands and shout from the top of your lungs "Lotito vaffanculo".

When a player on our squad receives a red card like Ledesma did in the derby and misses 2 games because an incapable ref couldn't keep things under control, instead of swearing at the lega calcio bureaucrats you turn your head to the VIP section of the stands and shout from the top of your lungs "Lotito vaffanculo".

When it rains and the pitch is muddy and hardly playable you turn your head to the VIP section of the stands and shout from the top of your lungs "Lotito vaffanculo".

When our relegation opponents trash Fiorentina away you turn your head to the VIP section of the stands and shout from the top of your lungs "Lotito vaffanculo".

When we drop out of Coppa Italia because a player on the opposing team scores a hat-trick and is later found doping-positive and nothing is done about that you turn your head to the VIP section of the stands and shout from the top of your lungs "Lotito vaffanculo".

When you walk down the street and step in dog sh1t say "Lotito vaffanculo" if it makes you feel better.

Have fun.

We would like to discuss things other than Lotito that made this season what it is. It's incredible to what lengths I have to go to, like this post, to make you understand this.

_________________
"One love, One Lazio SUPER TECH!!!" - mr douglas

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Caxi
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Mon May 10, 2010 11:39 am

Sile wrote:
It's an enchanted circle.

If it weren't for Lotito then the fans would spend more time chanting Lazio songs than "Lotito vattene". This way the frustration with the management and a couple of poor results transfers on to the players and that's when sh1t really hits the fan. Which results in more "Lotito vattene" chants, which results in more nervous performances, which results in a poor home form.

So yes, the roots to all problems can always be traced back to Lotito. But apart from the dick being in charge there are other factors to be considered. Players and coach can not just transfer the blame on to the president, they have to do their job that they are paid for, and we are trying to figure out why they failed so miserably in doing so.

This is my honest opinion, in a nutshell.

And mine too.

I have read and understood the points of Conn and Lucky Strike and I cannot say I disagree but after doing so, I would also be tempted to add this:

5. Everyone blaming anyone but themselves

Because if Lotito factors into the other 4 points so heavily, then the above must be included.

_________________
We live by the same principles we die for. Live, breathe, Lazio!

[url]http://lazio.theoffside.com
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pazke
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Mon May 10, 2010 12:09 pm

it all went wrong in ... Beijing, winning the Supercoppa beating Inter gave Lotito & Balla the idea that 'this Lazio' was ready to compete for a top 4 place ... the rest is history ... and I hope it will never repeat again.
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Ermetico
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Mon May 10, 2010 12:44 pm

Many of your comments are correct and reflects the circumstances.
Many others are also full pf good statements and some can be also interesting but controversial.

In any case there is one mission: to rebuild from the ground la Lazio.
The whole societa' , including, fans is affected by a virus since long time and no one had ever the courage to find solutions and start a real medication.
I got no time now to deployed all my toughts but we must find in our self first the lazialita' up to the last head.

Right now i am listening, reading, all comments and opinions.

_________________
Don't ask what SS lazio can do for you.
but what YOU can do for la SS Lazio!
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Jofo
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Mon May 10, 2010 12:59 pm

Simple as this, I don't want to go through the same again. Only one thing needs to be done, we got to change the whole way of thinking. The revolution needs to start in our own minds including the coach, players, management and of course us, the fans.


Lets look forward to more prosper and successful year.

FORZA LAZIO
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Lucky Strike
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Mon May 10, 2010 1:54 pm

Sile wrote:
Lucky Strike wrote:
Sile wrote:
It's an enchanted circle.

If it weren't for Lotito then the fans would spend more time chanting Lazio songs than "Lotito vattene". This way the frustration with the management and a couple of poor results transfers on to the players and that's when sh1t really hits the fan. Which results in more "Lotito vattene" chants, which results in more nervous performances, which results in a poor home form.

Ok. If you would count - literally - the amount of songs sang for our Lazio as opposed to those against Lotito (especially since BN took over the Curva Nord), you'd find that the vast majority of songs is sang to support the team and to proudly express the strong feelings of love for the one and only club in Rome, SS Lazio. Anyway, you say it yourself - "if it weren't for Lotito". These people have every reason to show their disgust to that man, every single reason. And come on, nervous performances? These are professionals, paid hundreds of thousands of euros a year, and they can't handle a song - they probably don't even hear or understand - against the president, which is really an ongoing war between him and ultras?! Give me a break, please.

Quote :
So yes, the roots to all problems can always be traced back to Lotito. But apart from the dick being in charge there are other factors to be considered. Players and coach can not just transfer the blame on to the president, they have to do their job that they are paid for, and we are trying to figure out why they failed so miserably in doing so.

Of course, but what is the reason we had to miss Pandev, and Ledesma, for so long, in times we really, really, really needed them? What is the reason people have left, and other - mediocre ones - have come?

...

When you walk down the street and step in dog sh1t say "Lotito vaffanculo" if it makes you feel better.

Have fun.

We would like to discuss things other than Lotito that made this season what it is. It's incredible to what lengths I have to go to, like this post, to make you understand this.

Sile, I'm afraid you don't understand what I'm trying to say. I agreed that this season has been horrible because of a mix of things, there are several factors, but my point is that most of these reasons and factors can be tracked back to Lotito. Why did we have to miss Pandev and Ledesma for so long, players we obviously needed so badly, one of them we lost forever. Because of bad management, because of Lotito's ego. Why was there more attention, in the build-up to a match, going to court cases about Lotito, than to the match itself. Because of Lotito's bad management, and ego. Why on earth was (is) our squad three times too large, which resulted - obviously - in unhappy players, therefore ruining the atmosphere in the team. Lotito. Why did our coach from last year leave us, a coach who gave us the Coppa Italia, to be replaced by a mediocre trainer, who - obviously - did not have the capabilities to make a team out of the 187 players he had at hand, and to book results. Lotito. Why on earth is there an ongoing war against Lotito in the first place, or do you honestly believe that the Curva Nord and so many other Laziali protest against the president in such manner just because the transfers weren't that good?

Do you honestly believe, that singing 'Lotito vattene' or something like that, has a big effect on the players' performance? As I said, from the moment the players enter the pitch for the warm-up, they are greeted and supported, until the end of the match - no matter how horrible the performance. I remember the big fuss when Curva Nord decided to leave the stands empty. People said it would affect the players' performance, that it was no good time to protest and that it showed the ignorance and whatever-the-f*ck of the ultras. We played one of our best matches. Do you honestly believe that we'd be higher up the stands, if the Laziali - who are there anytime, anywhere for the team - had not sang the songs against Lotito? I cannot understand how you'd name this as one of the reasons why this season was so bad. I'd say the opposite, the fans should protest more against Lotito, so we can get rid of this bastard. Oh great, we're saved from relegation, the point is that - as long as Lotito is here - one mediocre season will be followed by yet another mediocre season, and like that Lazio is becoming nothing more than a mid-table team. One of the biggest problems in my eyes is that some people seem to accept that. We are Lazio, we are the club that brought football to Rome, and we should fighting for Europe, not against relegation.

Lotito vattene.
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Sile
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Mon May 10, 2010 2:46 pm

Lucky Strike wrote:
Sile wrote:


So yes, the roots to all problems can always be traced back to Lotito.

Sile, I'm afraid you don't understand what I'm trying to say. I agreed that this season has been horrible because of a mix of things, there are several factors, but my point is that most of these reasons and factors can be tracked back to Lotito.

I think I understand perfectly what you're trying to say because I said it myself Very Happy

The sad reality is that Lotito is here. Hopefully, next year he will not be. My point is not everything that has happened on the pitch this year can be attributed solely on Lotito, so I'd like us to discuss those other factors.

There has to be a reason why Zarate flopped, why for half a season Kolarov was our top scorer, why Lichty's runs weren't as dangerous, why our defense leaked even more than last year, why was Mauri so bad under Ballardini and way better under Reja and so on.

Poor Olimpico form isn't an attack on fans or their loyalty which should never be in question. But there has to be a reason why this is so. I mean, who did we beat at home this season, Atalanta (relegated), Siena (relegated), Livorno (relegated) and Genoa. Jesus. That is terrible by any standard.

_________________
"One love, One Lazio SUPER TECH!!!" - mr douglas

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