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| | Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right? | |
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Caxi Son of Maestrelli


Number of posts: 3884 Age: 23 Country and city: Ireland Laziale since: 1995 Registration date: 2008-05-23
 | Subject: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right? Sun May 09, 2010 5:36 pm | |
| Udinese are now nothing but a formality. Rendered to an exhibition, I expect most laziali will be tuning into Serie A purely to see Inter clinch (hopefully) yet another Scudetto at the expense of Rioma. So, I don't think it is a bit early to start talking about where we messed up this season and what we can do to fix the cracks this summer. Here are the things that I believe contributed to a poor season: 1. What was once a fortress became a circusI don't need to be in Rome to know that something went drastically wrong at the Olimpico this season. Compare our home record from this season with recent seasons; 2009-10, 4 wins, 6 draws, 8 losses - 18 points. 2008-09, 8 wins, 4 draws, 7 losses - 28 points. 2007-08, 9 wins, 4 draws, 6 losses - 31 points.We lost 10-13 points at home this season which we don't normally yield. Our away form has actually been impressive and suggests that had the atmosphere in the Olimpico been correct all season long, we could have been far higher up the table. 2. European competition is a curseWith one game left, look at how last season's 2nd - 6th have done this season given they had the added pressure of European competition; Juventus2009-10: 55 points. 2008-09: 74 points. Difference: -19 points.AC Milan2009-10: 67 points. 2008-09: 74 points. Difference: -7 points.Fiorentina 2009-10: 47 points 2008-09: 68 points Difference: -21 points.Genoa2009-10: 51 points 2008-09: 68 pointsDifference: - 17 points.
Rioma 2009-10: 77 points. 2008-09: 63 points. Difference: + 14 points.There is a distinct pattern when you look above. The drop in points is drastic for all but Rioma; who underachieved last season with their off-field turmoil and having reacted quickly to the problems, they found themselves flying high again. The others all plummeted. Palermo, Sampdoria and Napoli have all managed to reap the benefits. Incidentally, they also made strategic coaching appointments that happened to pay dividends. Have we found our man in Reja? 3. Has it been a bad season after all?Seriously, has it? We currently sit on 43 points but a win against Udinese next weekend could see us finish the season in 12th with 46 points; an identical standing to 2008-09 and only 4 points and 2 positions off where we finished last season. Of course, we don't have a Coppa Italia to show for our exploits this year but with Europa League endeavours and woeful home form, have we really done all that badly? 4. The dissidentiPeople said Pandev was irreplaceable. People held a burning hatred for Ledesma. Well, let me point out a few facts. Prior to his reintegration, this is the points average of Lazio when Ledesma played to when he didn't feature. Lazio pts. average when Ledesma plays: 1.61 Lazio pts. average when Ledesma is out: 1.15In other words, we lose almost 0.5 points on average when Cristian is at home. That equates to 6-7 points in a season. So, you could say that we lost a good 3-4 points by leaving him out from September - January. It could easily be argued that he alone is the difference between this season and last. Have we missed Pandev? I don't see how. Zarate has scored 10 league goals less than last season and compensating for that has been Floccari. Therefore, I would argue that Floccari has done in 4 months what Goran usually does in 8. Sergio has arguably been a far better player in our shirt than Goran ever has. - - - - - So, I'm going to put it out there and say this season has been no worse than previous seasons, that our squad is no worse than previous seasons and I'm going to stick my neck on the line and say that if the atmosphere in the Olimpico improves, if Edy Reja stays, if the squad stays relatively the same in quality, then without Europa League, we will finish in the Top 8 next season. One good summer and we can be a hopeful bunch.  _________________ We live by the same principles we die for. Live, breathe, Lazio!
[url]http://lazio.theoffside.com
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|  | | ilsemprelaziale Curva Maestrelli

Number of posts: 126 Age: 32 Country and city: Denmark Registration date: 2009-07-15
 | Subject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right? Sun May 09, 2010 6:26 pm | |
| It's definetly 100% correct that Olimpico hasn't been a fortress this year and that this is something which has to change next season. Part of being a top team is being close to unbeatable at home.
I think there's a lot of reasons why we aren't good at home. Lots of tension at the stands due to constant protests against Lotito, much bigger pressure on the players when they play at home and also the fact that the teams that come to Olimpico and play us now, aren't afraid of us like they used to be.
Looking at our line up i'd say we have a pretty bad team and if I was managing a top 12 team in the league I would have no problems with telling my squad to attack and pressure Lazio all the time. It didn't used to be this way, most teams would come to Olimpico and just sit back and defend and have a lot of respect/fear of our attacks.
We need new and better players who can put constant pressure on our opposition. The current team is not good enough and if we don't get players that can lift our game then next year we will end midtable or worse again, it's as simple as that. Don't expect miracles from a mediocre team. We need either a new president or at least a better atmosphere in the Olimpico. Most Lazio fans hate Lotito and I don't think the atmosphere will get better until he leaves sadly.
And yes for crying out loud, Lotito HAS to get Ledesma to extend his contract! |
|  | | zoran Curva Maestrelli

Number of posts: 484 Age: 27 Country and city: Macedonia Laziale since: 1998 Registration date: 2008-05-28
 | Subject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right? Sun May 09, 2010 7:28 pm | |
| glad to see that this season is over...i think this is the most terrible season ive seen since i start to watch Lazio in 98'.... in the last game i expect from the players to left their heart on the field, to show their best game and to prove that they deserve to wear Lazio shirt for the next season...
and of course all wrong start with Lotitos stupid politics about Pandev,Ledesma,De Silvestri.....
...than we start to play the most stupid old age tactic ive seen - tactic for teams which r playing just for survival in the league and nothing more.
....for the next season we should reinstall the whole club politics and squad. ..we don't need in the first squad more than 23 players and btw at least 6 of them should be from the youth team. ..the only players i think should stay r : Zarate (and maybe Floccari), Radu, Dias, (maybe Lichtsteiner) and Kolarov - which also he should get new big contract and offer to be the Capitan (also can stay Rocchi but only because he scored many goals for Lazio in the past and because he is Italian. all others i think that can be replaceable with not big value of money.... ....also very important is to come new coach(younger age), and at least new sports director... |
|  | | Conn Honour member


Number of posts: 734 Age: 33 Country and city: Italy, Rome Laziale since: I was born Registration date: 2008-05-26
 | Subject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right? Sun May 09, 2010 7:43 pm | |
| | Caxi wrote: | We lost 10-13 points at home this season which we don't normally yield. Our away form has actually been impressive and suggests that had the atmosphere in the Olimpico been correct all season long, we could have been far higher up the table.
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| ilsemprelaziale wrote: | It's definetly 100% correct that Olimpico hasn't been a fortress this year and that this is something which has to change next season. Part of being a top team is being close to unbeatable at home.
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Statistics is a powerful tool, but using it lightly can be dangerous. In the case at hand, you are using the average stats to blame the "atmosphere at Olimpico". An econometrician would immediately see that yours is a rather sloppy conclusion, affected by a problem known in the literature as "omitted variables bias" (the Ballardini variable, in your case, and the level of the teams faced).
If next sunday we beat Udinese, Edy Reja will have achieved 8 points out of 7 matches at Olimpico. Last season, when you might claim that the "atmosphere" was "not that bad", against the same bunch of teams faced by Reja (and choosing Atalanta to replace Bari, as the table suggests), Delio Rossi achieved 9 points out of 7 matches. An econometrician could use this evidence to say that, had we signed Reja since the beginning, the home performance would have been about the same as last year (with the caveat that the inference is made using a small number of observations LOL). There would be "no Olimpico effect".
Said this, the statistics have many interesting things to say, and you pointed out many. But you forgot (?) the most important one: since lotito took over, we have always played very mediocre seasons, with a notable "outlier" exception in the after-calciopoli league.
After this season, Laziali will divide into two categories: those who will be happy to finish 8th in the next season, as you predict, and will renew their season ticket and keep going; and those who have really enough of lotito and will not renew the season ticket, and will keep protesting to get rid of him. If you think that this year Olimpico atmosphere was strange, wait to see next year's.
I belong to the second group. Lotito vattene! |
|  | | Caxi Son of Maestrelli


Number of posts: 3884 Age: 23 Country and city: Ireland Laziale since: 1995 Registration date: 2008-05-23
 | Subject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right? Sun May 09, 2010 7:52 pm | |
| Of course there are other factors, I simply highlighted the ones that struck a chord with me. I tried to avoid half-season stats where possible but you're right, Reja's home record won't be too bad if we win next weekend.
Mediocre seasons under Lotito is normative. However, I don't think our squad is mediocre.
Muslera - one of the highest-rated 'keepers in Serie A. Kolarov - rumours linking him to what is probably the best in Italy, Europe and the World says it all. Radu - best player of the season? Dias - widely regarded as the best CB playing in South America prior to his move here. Lichtsteiner - Consistent and has held his own in CL and National team. Mauri - has Azzurri caps and shown glimpses of such form. Matuzalem - was Shakhtar Donets'k's best player not so long ago. Ledesma - the heartbeat of the side, proven quality. Brocchi - CL winner. Floccari - Clinical goalscorer, one of the best in A. Zarate - Apparently worth 20 million euro. Rocchi - The captain, frequent goalscorer.
That team there looks a lot better than Samp on paper, per se. Look where they are. Now, that's only 13 players and we are probably 5 or so away from having a team that can regularly make Top 8. However, with everything in its right place, you would be thinking that side has the quality to launch an assault on the Top 4. So why are we fighting off relegation?
I refuse to buy the "our squad is mediocre" argument... _________________ We live by the same principles we die for. Live, breathe, Lazio!
[url]http://lazio.theoffside.com
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|  | | Conn Honour member


Number of posts: 734 Age: 33 Country and city: Italy, Rome Laziale since: I was born Registration date: 2008-05-26
 | Subject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right? Sun May 09, 2010 8:33 pm | |
| | Caxi wrote: | Of course there are other factors, I simply highlighted the ones that struck a chord with me.
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I understand Caxi, they are striking indeed. But, as I said, it's not correct to blame the "Olimpico atmosphere" on the basis of that numbers. However, more than noticing that it is "not statistically sound", reading that the fans are targeted as one of the causes of our shitty season, makes me sad. And I'll tell you why. I go off topic for a second.
It's the fans who, when the times got tough, supported the team away in thousands in important matches such as Sampdoria and Genoa (12 hours round trip) and Bologna. In hundreds at Cagliari (one day trip).
It's the fans who put their face to display clearly lotito as a social problem, trying their best to involve the Rome city council, politicians, risking and messing up against Bari. It's the fans that gathered thousands of signatures to stop lotito's speculative project, the only thing that keeps the pig linked to Lazio.
It's the fans who put their face to avoid asroma to win the scudetto, turning the city into a hell for months and months, and this season as one of the worst ever. According to several media (I don't agree but I gladly take the merit) it's the tension that followed Lazio-Inter that caused asroma players to lose nerves against Inter, losing the Coppa Italia.
Clearly talking about the fans is a delicate matter and it's impossible to reach a full agreement. But, at least, they do deserve their efforts to be recognized, and not bashed with no reason. Of course they have made mistakes, as everyone, but their, our attitude in the Curva is always meant to be for the sake of Lazio and her fans.
This is what I wanted to say, and not I will leave this thread. Nor that it is not insightful, because it is actually. But to me, Lazio will always remain a mediocre team, with lotito. So I prefer 100 times to spend my energy in trying to understand our real chances to get rid of the evil, rather than trying to guess next year championship performance. |
|  | | Henrik Curva Nord


Number of posts: 576 Age: 20 Country and city: Sweden, Norrköping Laziale since: 1999 Registration date: 2008-05-22
 | Subject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right? Sun May 09, 2010 8:59 pm | |
| Agree Conn. Grazie Curva Nord. |
|  | | Sile LFever Team Member


Number of posts: 2737 Age: 28 Country and city: Croatia,Zagreb Laziale since: '96 Registration date: 2008-05-24
 | Subject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right? Sun May 09, 2010 9:11 pm | |
| By sticking to a part of Caxi's argument you totally overlooked everything else he wrote in his quality post.
Let's not make this another discussion about CN but about why this season there have been so many dips in form in certain players.
For me, the majority of blame lies within the utterly disastrous coach in the first part of the season. Reja very well saved us from relegation. A better coach from the start would see us in the upper part of the table. _________________ "One love, One Lazio SUPER TECH!!!" - mr douglas  |
|  | | Lucky Strike Aquilotto

Number of posts: 21 Age: 39 Country and city: Rome, Italy Registration date: 2010-04-14
 | Subject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right? Sun May 09, 2010 9:13 pm | |
| Where did it all go wrong.............................  I agree with Conn, as always really. @ Caxi. "Had the atmosphere in the Olimpico been correct all season long, we could have been far higher up the table"? What do you mean with correct exactly, if I may ask. And how far higher up do you think we could have been, with that correct atmoshpere? And thirdly, do you honestly believe that this is one of the root causes for this horrible season, a bad atmosphere (in your eyes) at home games? I say and ask this with all due respect, Caxi, I find it interesting to see other people's opinions. I mean no sarcasm whatsoever, I'm just curious. |
|  | | Sile LFever Team Member


Number of posts: 2737 Age: 28 Country and city: Croatia,Zagreb Laziale since: '96 Registration date: 2008-05-24
 | Subject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right? Sun May 09, 2010 9:19 pm | |
| Jesus people, the poor home form is just one of the four reasons he believes to be the problem.
We are the only team in the league (or one of the few) to collect more points away than home. This season there were more ppl in the stands than last (if stats are to be believed) and if we agree that the atmosphere wasn't the issue then what was it? Suggestions? Opinions?
Ballardini fucked us up badly, and he messed with the minds of key players. Omitting Ledesma was also a terrible idea (credit to baronio who stepped up), and all the formation and tactical changes frustrated the players.
Reja came, said the team will play 3-5-2, made the selection of first 11 and stuck by it, ultimately saving us, without much service by Meghni, Zarate, Matuzalem or Foggia. The guy helped us where Ballardini failed. _________________ "One love, One Lazio SUPER TECH!!!" - mr douglas  |
|  | | Conn Honour member


Number of posts: 734 Age: 33 Country and city: Italy, Rome Laziale since: I was born Registration date: 2008-05-26
 | Subject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right? Sun May 09, 2010 9:45 pm | |
| | Sile wrote: | By sticking to a part of Caxi's argument you totally overlooked everything else he wrote in his quality post.
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Sile, I did not overlook anything and I've acknowledged Caxi's post is actually insightful.
I posted because I found both not correct and not fair one of the points. The one that touched me directly. Namely, the impact of the "Olimpico atmosphere". I think I've explained my reasons, and I also think Caxi agreed with me (it would be strange, but I hope he did )
About the other insightful things, I have not touched them. But there is no overlooking. Simply, as I said, I don't care, I am discouraged, I'm tired, I'm exhausted. I firmly believe things will not change with lotito so to me there is no point in talking about team form and players performances. |
|  | | Lucky Strike Aquilotto

Number of posts: 21 Age: 39 Country and city: Rome, Italy Registration date: 2010-04-14
 | Subject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right? Sun May 09, 2010 9:56 pm | |
| First of all, respect for the effort you put in your post, Caxi. However, I think you might be looking at the wrong issues. Here's my opinion.
Obviously there's not just one main reason for this horrible season, it's a combination of so many things - but I believe the root cause is Lotito. You talk about our home record, you talk about the atmosphere, but I think you have to look deeper than that. What's the cause of an arguably bad or strange atmoshpere. What's the cause of the bad home record. You said - if atmosphere would have been better - we'd be higher up the table. I say, if management would have been better, if the transfers would have been better, we'd be higher up the table.
Secondly, although it's quite a common thing - as you pointed out with your data - that a European campaign does have effect on a team's results in the league, again I don't believe this is one the main issues why this season has been so bad. Furthermore I'm afraid you look at those numbers too much. You have a point, of course, when you say that we're not that far behind an almost European spot, but that's not really what this is about. We've lost at home against teams we should never lose to. And it's not just that, it's the way in which we lost. I've seen matches this season I honestly believe(d) were sold/fixed, because there was no willingness whatsoever to win, despite the fans' support. You talk about Ledesma, you talk about Pandev - both very good players we've obviously missed for so long. One of them is gone forever. What's the cause of this.
For me, and so many others, the cause is not the injured Matuzalem or the selfish Zarate or the protest against Lotito or the bad luck or the poor coach or the whatever-the-fuck. It's Lotito. I'm not saying every single detail that went wrong is his fault, but he is - without a doubt - the main reason why this season most things (and in the previous ones) went wrong and turned into smelling as.
As Laziale, you get used to it. We've lost so many matches, we've lost the derby one too many times, we've had our fanbase divided, we've had horrible times, we've seen Gabriele leave our terraces and go into heaven to join the other ultras, we've seen injustice - also one too many times - but we hold our heads up high. We are Laziali, and that is what makes us so special. We fight for our history and colours, no matter what. We're consistent and determined. Lotito is a disease that has to leave our Lazio, it's as simple as that. |
|  | | Lucky Strike Aquilotto

Number of posts: 21 Age: 39 Country and city: Rome, Italy Registration date: 2010-04-14
 | Subject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right? Sun May 09, 2010 10:16 pm | |
| | Conn wrote: | | Sile wrote: | By sticking to a part of Caxi's argument you totally overlooked everything else he wrote in his quality post.
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Sile, I did not overlook anything and I've acknowledged Caxi's post is actually insightful.
I posted because I found both not correct and not fair one of the points. The one that touched me directly. Namely, the impact of the "Olimpico atmosphere". I think I've explained my reasons, and I also think Caxi agreed with me (it would be strange, but I hope he did )
About the other insightful things, I have not touched them. But there is no overlooking. Simply, as I said, I don't care, I am discouraged, I'm tired, I'm exhausted. I firmly believe things will not change with lotito so to me there is no point in talking about team form and players performances. |
Boh, just spent half 'n' hour typing up my post, where these two sentences really say everything I wanted to say. |
|  | | Conn Honour member


Number of posts: 734 Age: 33 Country and city: Italy, Rome Laziale since: I was born Registration date: 2008-05-26
 | |  | | Galles. Aquilotto

Number of posts: 96 Age: 38 Country and city: Bath,England, UK Laziale since: Foetus Registration date: 2008-06-24
 | Subject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right? Sun May 09, 2010 10:32 pm | |
| Appointing a poor manager when we had stability.The rest just fell into place from thereon |
|  | | | | Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right? | |
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