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 Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?

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pazke
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Mon May 10, 2010 5:05 pm

Sile wrote:
I mean, who did we beat at home this season, Atalanta (relegated), Siena (relegated), Livorno (relegated) and Genoa. Jesus. That is terrible by any standard.
That's 'bottom-of-the-league' standard, something we've just escaped by the skin of a monkey's bum.
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Lucky Strike
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Mon May 10, 2010 8:10 pm

Sile wrote:
Lucky Strike wrote:
Sile wrote:


So yes, the roots to all problems can always be traced back to Lotito.

Sile, I'm afraid you don't understand what I'm trying to say. I agreed that this season has been horrible because of a mix of things, there are several factors, but my point is that most of these reasons and factors can be tracked back to Lotito.

I think I understand perfectly what you're trying to say because I said it myself Very Happy

The sad reality is that Lotito is here. Hopefully, next year he will not be. My point is not everything that has happened on the pitch this year can be attributed solely on Lotito, so I'd like us to discuss those other factors.

There has to be a reason why Zarate flopped, why for half a season Kolarov was our top scorer, why Lichty's runs weren't as dangerous, why our defense leaked even more than last year, why was Mauri so bad under Ballardini and way better under Reja and so on.

Poor Olimpico form isn't an attack on fans or their loyalty which should never be in question. But there has to be a reason why this is so. I mean, who did we beat at home this season, Atalanta (relegated), Siena (relegated), Livorno (relegated) and Genoa. Jesus. That is terrible by any standard.

Of course you can't blame Lotito for a missed penalty or a bad free kick. But you can blame him for the transfers, for the coach, and so on. You say Lichtsteiner wasn't that good under Ballardini, well who chose Ballardini? It's the job of the coach to chose the best players and to create a team, it's the job of the coach to motivate players like Zarate, and to tell him not to be so selfish. And who chose that mediocre coach, in stead of someone who deserves a club like Lazio, someone who can deal with players like Zarate? Lotito. Who waited so long to fire him, it's half a miracle Reja saved us from relegation. Lotito. The man who has this year played around with our history, our club, our reputation. And the fans just have to accept everything, of course, and oh my if they dare to protest for one match... Whose fault was it, that we had to miss massively important players like Pandev and Ledesma for so long, who can change a whole match by themselves and who are the glue of our team? Lotito. I'm not saying every single detail is his fault, but I do believe he is the one and only, main factor for our bad season. We are saved from relegation after a horrific season, but as long as Lotito is president, nothing much will change. He is our problem, he has to go.
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Roman_Eagle
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Mon May 10, 2010 8:23 pm

where did it all go wrong? - Ballardini
How do we put it right? - Reja
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Cash
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Mon May 10, 2010 8:42 pm

Important issues, and interesting facts brougfht up Caxi! Some of them I feel a need to comment…

I am not sure the atmosphere in Olimpico can get any better than it is, or has been, in any place in the world. The players on the field know (or at least they should know) that la Lazio is not like any other random club, we are Lazio and we are different. The guys in CN have been following the team, in ups and downs, at home or away, and they have always been there, even in sit ins or boycotts they are presenct . Of course when they get neglected, and insulted, the way that our president has insulted and neglected the Lazialita, they have to react with chants against him and banners upside down. I have spoken to players and fans, inside and outside the club, and everybody manifests that the major, and largest, issue with Lazio underperforming is the attitude of our president towards players and leaders. I guess some leaders would disagree though…
Any chance you could dig out some stats on points taken in Olimpico before and after the entrance of Lotito? Would be interesting to see, since I remember Lazio being a powerhouse at home earlier, while we have been mediocre (at its greatest) the last few years.

I will never forget when I was told what Lichty and Meghni said to a friend of mine who shares mother tongue with the two blokes: "We love playing football, and the fans that Lazio have are exclusive in the way that they always supported us, they were there even if we had a completely meaningless game. Even when they invade formello we understand why they do so. The problem has always been the same; who is in control of the dressing room and the team? During Delio we clearly saw the struggle between him and Lotito regarding certain issues. Now that we have Ballardini, no one knows who is in charge. Some players get to play despite underperforming in games and trainings, while others are never given a chance."
So,without getting too boring, the root of the problem is the president. And we will never improve under him. This season showed the negativity even more highlighted, and I hope we will soon see the cunt walk out…

Then the point made on how many points we got this season, compared to last and the year before that, I feel is a very strange one. How could this season be, more or less, on level terms with the last or the one before that? Yes, we havent collected that many fewer points or so, but there is more to it than that: last year we were clear off of relegation all bloody season. We were never really risking to get relegated, as we have this whole season. Apart from that, we had the Coppa Italia success to focus on last year, and we never really had anything to fight for in the league the last part of the season. This season though, we have been down there ever since the start, and despite knowing that we might end up in Serie B, it took all the way until yesterday for us to become mathematically secure. There are different ways of finish in position 8-17; with struggle or as a consequence of lack of motivation and facing teams that have more to play for. I think Catania has had a better season than us. Actually, to me, this has been the worst season in ages. Take a look at the number of goals scored; only Livorno are worse… and, we have played like smelling as almost the complete season.
And I avoid commenting Europa League, where we performed even worse than when we were in CL the last time…truly shameful.
Not missing Pandev? Fuck man, I have missed him all season. So has Zarate, Rocchi and the rest of the team I believe. He always occupied a couple of defenders on his own, had the independent brilliance needed, and never complained about being benched or subbed with disasters such as Inzaghi, Makinwa or Manfredini. Look at total goals scored again. Not only because of Pandev, but I believe he was a threat even if he wasn’t a super scorer. Stating that Floccari has been better in the Lazio shirt than Pandev ever was is…well…I don’t even know what adjective to use to underline the lack of insight in this specific point.
The importance of Ledesma you have underlined, I remember when many thought that Baronio was a replacement good enough and that we didn’t really need Cristian. Funny. With Baronio still as our leader in the midfield we would have been relegated. That I am sure of. But again, playing Baronio was the work of Lotito and nothing or no one else.
We have become a club that few presidents enjoy doing business with, and a team that few players want to stay in (at least of the players who get to play and who have quality enough for other teams to be interested in picking up). Our mercato the last few years have been a joke, the size of our squad (due to no one wanting to buy poor quality players who are sitting on long contracts) is far too large with far too many players that would never make it into a Serie A squad. The fact that players leaving us never have a positive word to say about Lotito, while they on numerous occasions have manifested their love for the colours, fans and the city, says a lot.
To round off, I would say that this season has been the worst in a long long time, that our squad holds very few quality players and that Reja staying or leaving doesn’t make a major difference. We cannot blame every detail that went wrong this season on Lotito, but there are very few that cannot be traced back to the poor management of the club…
The only part of la Lazio that actually still holds quality is the CN and the constant presence of the fans. Grande.
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Jofo
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Tue May 11, 2010 12:13 am

Nice points Cash, agree completely.
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Caxi
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Tue May 11, 2010 12:47 am

I'm glad the topic has generated some decent discussion...

@ Cash: Great post I must say. Actually, I presented some arguments that I don't believe 100% in, just because I think they were arguable. I'm with Sile though, that home form is dire to the point where I have to conclude that something, somewhere was different this season. If I get the time, I will look to draw some other comparisons because I think you raise a valid point about a possible pattern over an extended period.

I wouldn't say we didn't miss Pandev pre-February. I genuinely think we eventually made up for him and if Zarate wasn't suffering from second season syndrome, that attack would have been fine but since Cruz was a flop and a half, we did miss him. I don't really blame inadequacy in the transfer policy of Lotito here. Simply, some players didn't cut the mustard and that's where you can start taking aim at Ballardini or perhaps more tellingly, the atmosphere surrounding the club. Goran never lived up to his true potential here, or anywhere for that matter and as far as I can see, he is nothing short of a utility player at Inter, in the same vain as, say, Mariga. I don't want to reignite that debate though.

I am surprised nobody had really delved into the Europa League stat. I may expand that for other seasons; it seems to be a serious, serious factor that most fans are just ignoring for some strange reason.

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Il Capitano
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Tue May 11, 2010 1:16 am

Many reasons have been mentioned, but when we look at the team it should be good enough to play around the 10th place. Everything else is unrealistic since we don't have the fan support of teams like Palermo or Napoli or a tactical masterbrain like Del Neri (Samp) or Gasperini (Genoa) on the bench.

Base players: Muslera, Bizzarri - Lichtsteiner, Biava, Diaz, Diakite, Stendardo, Radu, Kolarov - Brocchi, Dabo, Ledesma, Mauri, Matuzalem, Hitzlsperger, Foggia - Rocchi, Zarate, Cruz, Floccari

For all other players there is no reason at all to be on the squad, because talent-wise they are just not good enough. I talk about Firmani, Siviglia, Manfredini, Scaloni or Inzaghi. If we add two or three decent players like Cagliari's Canini, who should finally be available, a young striker and a back-up left-back we should be fine. For sure people will ask for more but Inter, Roma, Milan and Juventus still have better team and Fiorentina, Genoa, Samp, Napoli and Palermo are also decent teams. I would rather concentrate on fixing the off-pitch problems.
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El Weninho
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Wed May 12, 2010 4:32 am

Got some work to do this summer?

Muslera
Carrizo
Berni
Bizzarri
(Santarelli)

Lichststeiner
Zauri
Del Nero
Scaloni
Tuia
Faraoni
Dias
Stendardo
Cribari
Diakite
Biava
(Bonetto)
Kolarov
Luciani
Radu
(Siviglia)

Correa
Eliseu
(Manfredini)
Ledesma
Brocchi
Meghni
Matuzalem
Perpetuini
(Hitzlsperger)
(Baronio)
Firmani
(Dabo)
Mauri
Sevieri
Foggia

Inzaghi
Barreto
Rocchi
Makinwa
Kozak
Mendicino
Zarate
Mancini
(Cruz)
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Cash
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Wed May 12, 2010 2:29 pm

The sad part of seeing that list is that very few of the players we would like to get out actually hold enough quality for us to hope that some other top flight team would want them. Maybe Eli is a potential player for the future for Zarragosa and maybe Zauri has done good enough to stay as a player for Samp,other than that we will probably struggle in trying to get the players that have not been serie a material for us to leave for a club where they find their situation better than warming the bench,or the stands,in Lazio.
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Ed
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Wed May 12, 2010 2:41 pm

Cash wrote:
Any chance you could dig out some stats on points taken in Olimpico before and after the entrance of Lotito? Would be interesting to see, since I remember Lazio being a powerhouse at home earlier, while we have been mediocre (at its greatest) the last few years.
I had a look on here - http://soccernet.espn.go.com/team/stats?id=112&cc=5739 , and went through the home stats:

(Results in blue are W, D, L as usual)

08-9
8-4-7 For: 23 Against: 24 Points: 28 Rank: 15

07-8
9-4-6 For: 28 Against: 23 Points: 31 Rank: 7

06-7
10-6-3 For: 25 Against: 9 Points: 36 Rank: 6

05-6
11-7-1 For: 34 Against: 18 Points: 40 Rank: 5

04-5
6-6-7 For: 26 Against: 24 Points: 24 Rank: 18

> Pre-Lotito! (17 games at home not 19)

03-4
10-4-3 For: 35 Against: 19 Points: 34 Rank: 7

02-3
7-8-2 For: 31 Against: 16 Points: 29 Rank: 10

01-2
10-6-1 For: 38 Against: 18 Points: 36 Rank: 4

I think from that lot you can say that we have had 3 terrible home seasons since 2004-5, 2 good, and 1 OK. The worst thing is that the points total has dropped season by season since 2006. We lost 6 home games in 3 years prior to Lotito taking charge and yet 7 in his first, probably to be expected by the sudden drop in quality of the squad. The next two seasons were brilliant home records but then it went downhill fast to where we are today.

It is strange to think back that however I felt about Ballardini before this season started, I was always expecting our home form to be good due to his record las year at Palermo...

How wrong could I have been... let further analysis take place...
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Caput Mundi
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Wed May 12, 2010 2:52 pm

El Weninho wrote:
Got some work to do this summer?

Muslera - integral
Carrizo - sell
Berni - keep as no.2
Bizzarri - sell
Iannarilli - keep as no.3 / can he still play primavera??
(Santarelli) - sell him and stop ruining his life please

Lichststeiner - integral
Zauri - sell
Del Nero - keep, good squad player
Scaloni - sell
Tuia - keep or loan out again
Faraoni - keep or loan out for game time
Dias - keep
Stendardo - keep
Cribari - sell
Diakite - keep him or if not in plans, then cash in
Biava - keep
(Bonetto) - release
Kolarov - cash in
Luciani - keep or loan out
Radu - keep and extend contract
(Siviglia) - release

Correa - let go
Eliseu - sell to Zaragoza
(Manfredini) - release
Ledesma - keep and extend contract
Brocchi - keep
Meghni - sell, he'll simply never be fit
Matuzalem - keep but if a buyer comes along...
Perpetuini - keep
(Hitzlsperger) - release
(Baronio) - release
Firmani - keep, good squad player
(Dabo) - back to France
Mauri - keep
Sevieri - loan out
Foggia - use as bait

Inzaghi - release
Barreto - keep or loan out
Rocchi - keep
Makinwa - kill
Kozak - loan out again or sell
Mendicino - loan out again
Zarate - keep at all costs
Mancini - loan out
(Cruz) - will retire

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Caxi
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Wed May 12, 2010 3:59 pm

Caput Mundi wrote:
El Weninho wrote:
Got some work to do this summer?

Muslera - integral
Carrizo - sell
Berni - keep as no.2
Bizzarri - sell
Iannarilli - keep as no.3 / can he still play primavera??
(Santarelli) - sell him and stop ruining his life please

Lichststeiner - integral
Zauri - sell
Del Nero - keep, good squad player
Scaloni - sell
Tuia - keep or loan out again
Faraoni - keep or loan out for game time
Dias - keep
Stendardo - keep
Cribari - sell
Diakite - keep him or if not in plans, then cash in
Biava - keep
(Bonetto) - release
Kolarov - cash in
Luciani - keep or loan out
Radu - keep and extend contract
(Siviglia) - release

Correa - let go
Eliseu - sell to Zaragoza
(Manfredini) - release
Ledesma - keep and extend contract
Brocchi - keep
Meghni - sell, he'll simply never be fit
Matuzalem - keep but if a buyer comes along...
Perpetuini - keep
(Hitzlsperger) - release
(Baronio) - release
Firmani - keep, good squad player
(Dabo) - back to France
Mauri - keep
Sevieri - loan out
Foggia - use as bait

Inzaghi - release
Barreto - keep or loan out
Rocchi - keep
Makinwa - kill
Kozak - loan out again or sell
Mendicino - loan out again
Zarate - keep at all costs
Mancini - loan out
(Cruz) - will retire

+1

Maybe killing Makinwa is a tad harsh and perhaps we should look at keeping one of Hitzlsperger or Baronio but other than that, I agree 100% with your ideas of what to do.

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Cash
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Wed May 12, 2010 4:49 pm

Lets employ "Caput Mundi" as sporting director cheers
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Sile
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Wed May 12, 2010 6:22 pm

Caput's idea leaves us with 22-25 players depending on how many players we loan out, if we manage to sell or release everyone we'd like to sell or release.
It is a massive problem and a real weight on the club. Far too many players of which far too few show real quality.

I'm very sceptical that we will be able to offload these players. We've been wanting to get rid of Makinwa and Inzaghi for how long now? And still we kept bringing in more and more players on loans and one-year contracts and so on.

The most important target in my opinion is omitted from the list, Sergio Floccari is an absolute must.

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Ed
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Wed May 12, 2010 6:58 pm

Definitely a long time overdue. Time to trim the deadwood in the Lazio forest...

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AbedElkader
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Wed May 12, 2010 7:52 pm

What went wrong ?? how about having 30+ players with naggy agents on 1 side, and the cheapest boss on the other, in the middlle is pussiest coach ever called ballardini that couldnt stand up against anyone !!! that he couldnt do his job thats what went wrong in a few words . . . .
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phantomm1976
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Thu May 13, 2010 2:39 am

muslera,lichty,dias,ledesma,zarate,flocari,radu - integral without doubts

matuzalem,brochhi,rochhi,stendardo,diakite,foggia - keep

mauri,meghni - could be useful if they dont coast us a lot.

bareto - give him the chance

others - say thanks and sell
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Sile
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Thu May 13, 2010 5:55 pm

Here's an appropriate joke:

First day of school in an American high school. The teacher introduces the new kid, Yuchiro Suzuki from Japan, to the rest of the class. As the class start, the teacher says:
- "Let's start with a small quiz in American history. Who said "Freedom or death?" Suddenly silence and only Suzuki raises his hand:
- "Patrick Henry, 1775. in Philadelphia."
- "Very good Suzuki. And who said: "The nation is it's people and as such can never die?"
Suzuki raises his hand:
- "Abraham Lincoln, 1863, Washington."
The teacher looks at her students and says:
- "Shame on you, Suzuki is Japanese and know American history better than you."
A silent voice from the back of the class:
- "Go fuck yourselves, shitty Japs"
- "Who said that!?", yells the teacher.
Suzuki raises his hand and says:
- "General MacArthur, 1942, Guadalcanalu, and Lee Iacocca 1982 at the Chrysler management board meeting, Detroit."
The class is in silence and you can again hear a silent voice:
- "Suck my cock!!!"
The teacher is furious:
- "I've had enough. Who said that?"
Suzuki:
- "Bill Clinton to Monica Levinsky, Oval Office, 1997 in Washington."
Another voice yells:
- "Suzuki is sh1t!"
Suzuki:
- "Valentino Rossi in Rio de Janeiro at the Brazil moto Grand-Prix in 2002."
The class goes wild, the teacher starts crying, and in walks the school principal:
- "Son of a bitch, I have never seen such chaos."
Suzuki:
- "Edy Reja, Formello training ground, Rome, Italy, when all the players returned to the club, summer of 2010."

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Roman_Eagle
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Thu May 13, 2010 7:26 pm

hopefully this joke will not be true :)
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Caput Mundi
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Fri May 14, 2010 3:28 am

Ahahah that's fucken brilliant.

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Kris
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Fri May 14, 2010 6:21 am

Where did it all go wrong?

Rossi out... Balla In. Period.
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Lucky Strike
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Fri May 14, 2010 2:18 pm

Kris wrote:
Where did it all go wrong?

Rossi out... Balla In. Period.

And why did Rossi (have to) leave? Why did Ballardini had to start without our two most important players?

Exactly.
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Caxi
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Fri May 14, 2010 4:34 pm

Lucky Strike wrote:
Kris wrote:
Where did it all go wrong?

Rossi out... Balla In. Period.

And why did Rossi (have to) leave? Why did Ballardini had to start without our two most important players?

Exactly.

This is a logical argument and I understand it, however, can we not also look at it from another perspective and say that if Lotito made perfectly agreeable decisions then things can still go wrong?

I mean, I am looking to next season, thinking of a team comprising Radu, Ledesma, Muslera with Reja on the bench, maybe Marino as DS and Lotito taking a backseat when it comes to club affairs and yet I also envisage this perfect scenario for many as being a potential nightmare.

I mean this with the greatest respect Lucky Strike, as always. You're right, one can attribute all the blame on the shoulders of Lotito but that is because he is top of the Lazio hierarchy. And dare I say it, because it is also the easy way out.

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Country and city : Lithuania
Registration date : 2009-09-15

PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Fri May 14, 2010 9:46 pm

El Weninho wrote:
Got some work to do this summer?

Muslera - keep and extend contract; integral
Carrizo - goodness me...
Berni - no.2
Bizzarri - sell

Lichststeiner - integral
Zauri - sell to Samp
Del Nero - wouldn't mind if he remain
Scaloni - sell
Tuia - loan
Faraoni - seems like he's going to Inter
Dias - integral
Stendardo - keep
Cribari - same as Carrizo
Diakite - sell, I think. There is no plans for him in starting 11. And he's too young to ruin his career on the bench.
Biava - keep, solid backup
(Bonetto) - release
Kolarov - extend contract or cash in
Luciani - keep or loan
Radu - integral; extend contract, which will be difficult
(Siviglia) - retirement, I think

Correa - let go
Eliseu - sell to Zaragoza
(Manfredini) - yeah, he's irreplacable.
Ledesma - keep and extend contract
Brocchi - keep
Meghni - he's never fit so whatever
Matuzalem - never fit either. Cash in if there's a buyer.
Perpetuini - keep or loan
(Hitzlsperger) - what was his signing all about? Release
(Baronio) - release.
Firmani - decent backup
(Dabo) - back to France
Mauri - keep, but I hope there is a new player in his place, so Mauri will be on bench
Sevieri - loan
Foggia - fights against injuries more than opponents. Like Matuzalem, cash in if there's a buyer.

Inzaghi - release.
Barreto - give him a chance or loan out somewhere.
Rocchi - keep.
Makinwa - killing him would be too cruel. Just keep him away from Lazio as far as possible. End of story.
Kozak - loan out again.
Mendicino - loan
Zarate - still integral.
Mancini - loan
(Cruz) - retires
Floccari - buy BECAUSE IT'S THE BIGGEST MUST OF ALL MUSTS IN THE WORLD

this is my vision. I really hope we'll get rid of that dead wood, because it's clearly too much of it. And it frustrates.
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Kris
Curva Nord
Curva Nord


Number of posts : 624
Age : 36
Country and city : Melbourne, Australia
Laziale since : 1992
Registration date : 2008-07-21

PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Sat May 15, 2010 1:22 am

Caxi wrote:
Lucky Strike wrote:
Kris wrote:
Where did it all go wrong?

Rossi out... Balla In. Period.

And why did Rossi (have to) leave? Why did Ballardini had to start without our two most important players?

Exactly.

This is a logical argument and I understand it, however, can we not also look at it from another perspective and say that if Lotito made perfectly agreeable decisions then things can still go wrong?

I mean, I am looking to next season, thinking of a team comprising Radu, Ledesma, Muslera with Reja on the bench, maybe Marino as DS and Lotito taking a backseat when it comes to club affairs and yet I also envisage this perfect scenario for many as being a potential nightmare.

I mean this with the greatest respect Lucky Strike, as always. You're right, one can attribute all the blame on the shoulders of Lotito but that is because he is top of the Lazio hierarchy. And dare I say it, because it is also the easy way out.

Caxi, you need to stop over analysing these things. The issue was: (see my previous post). Period.

No "maybe's", no "but on the other side", no excuses. Lotito is a cunt, and the Rossi out, Balla in scenario really butt fucked us.
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PostSubject: Re: Where did it all go wrong? How do we put it right?   Today at 5:26 am

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