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 Lotito trial against Irriducibili

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Gundebondo
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PostSubject: Lotito trial against Irriducibili   Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:06 pm

Spare me your left-wing rethoric....there is no place for people like you in our ranks....you belong to those coward "rats" who cannot understand the meaning of words like "identity" or "tradition" or "allegiance"....you talk about your past as a supporter....but here the topic is quite different....however, I come from a family where support for S.S. Lazio 1900 dates back to 1920....our grandfather....my father, died on January 3 1997, has still his place in Curva Nord as he wrote in his will....my brother and I pay every year for his subscription....my brother, my cousins and I have been arrested a few times defending our colours....what are you talking about? Who are you? You talk about "Camorra" when the judge himself clarified that the defendants, the four Irriducibili members, had no idea of the larger implications of a plot carried out by people "external" to our environment....you should wash your mouth....and "your" President will not be protected forever....in Curva Nord we are ashamed of people like you....you should be in the other side....

Forza e Onore
Freedom for the Ultras!!
Onore agli Irriducibili!!

Gundebondo
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Danish-Laziofan
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PostSubject: Re: Lotito trial against Irriducibili   Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:27 pm

Oh,please come on,"you should be in the other side"! Is this Star Wars? We are LAZIALE ffs... We SHOULD be one. Noone should be "ashamed" of the other... When it goes down to the basics we support the same colours,no?
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Ermetico
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PostSubject: Re: Lotito trial against Irriducibili   Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:02 pm

Is a strange fact but in every forum in every place , radio, Tv, talkshow , the stadium when people start talking about Ultras, Irr, Curva the arguments are Normal.

There is any chance to see people talking normally?..

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Conn
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PostSubject: Re: Lotito trial against Irriducibili   Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:57 pm

Ermetico wrote:
Is a strange fact but in every forum in every place , radio, Tv, talkshow , the stadium when people start talking about Ultras, Irr, Curva the arguments are Normal.

There is any chance to see people talking normally?..

Paolo, I think in this forum we have quite different opinions, yet we are talking normally. There is only one guy that in so much time has not got the point yet. He comes here, he says that Irriducibili sided with Camorra while they were not even charged for that, he offends the Curva Nord fans, he vomits lies and hate. He comes here just to post in one single topic, and when there are no latest news he uses his archive, like the 2 years old news he posted a few days ago Very Happy. Now, in my humble opinion, such a member can only be either :
a) a provoker
or
b) a retarded

To Gundebondo:

There is no need to reply to free@eagle, aka jump in the old laziofever.com. He is the one who exulted when the four IRR guys were arrested and kept in jail without a process, he is the one who exulted when Toffolo was shot, he is the one that keep offending curva nord, the one that claims people to be guilty when the process still has to finish. A sad character.
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Ermetico
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PostSubject: Re: Lotito trial against Irriducibili   Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:04 pm

Conn wrote:
Ermetico wrote:
Is a strange fact but in every forum in every place , radio, Tv, talkshow , the stadium when people start talking about Ultras, Irr, Curva the arguments are Normal.

There is any chance to see people talking normally?..

Paolo, I think in this forum we have quite different opinions, yet we are talking normally. There is only one guy that in so much time has not got the point yet. He comes here, he says that Irriducibili sided with Camorra while they were not even charged for that, he offends the Curva Nord fans, he vomits lies and hate. He comes here just to post in one single topic, and when there are no latest news he uses his archive, like the 2 years old news he posted a few days ago Very Happy. Now, in my humble opinion, such a member can only be either :
a) a provoker
or
b) a retarded

To Gundebondo:

There is no need to reply to free@eagle, aka jump in the old laziofever.com. He is the one who exulted when the four IRR guys were arrested and kept in jail without a process, he is the one who exulted when Toffolo was shot, he is the one that keep offending curva nord, the one that claims people to be guilty when the process still has to finish. A sad character.



I agree with you Conn but , as a peacekeeper , i try to act correctly in both sides.
I don't like when words go "over the line of respect"and this is where we, LF team, place our rules.

In any case i need to know and to be sure: Free eagle are you the man that i know?
Is time to contact me privately or to show up who you are.
I can't accept from one of our best forum members of the past LFever to hide with another nickname.
If not excuse me if yes i will take my personal decision.

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PostSubject: Re: Lotito trial against Irriducibili   Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:41 pm

Conn wrote:
usampa wrote:
Actually I knew about Flaminio....
But tell me honestly , what do you think would be more profitable for the club, Flaminio stadium , or other stadium plus major infrastructure around ?

Usampa, a football club needs a stadium where you can have an official store, a restaurant/bar, a little museum, nothing more. It was possible to have all of this in the Flaminio area.

Talking about the profitability of the club, I do believe that a new stadium (even without a city around) "in Rome" would be better than the Flaminio option. The problem, however, is a little bit more complicated. We have (we had, actually), the certainty of Flaminio, now on the one side, and the hypothesis of a new stadium to be build somewhere, at some point, if... possibly... when.

About the balance between the club's own good and the president own profit, let me clarify that I never said that lotito should not gain from Lazio. It is something most presidents do, and besides, since the football clubs lost their "no profit" label, it's something we must accept.
However, I have a problem if I see someone that does not just aim at gaining, but wants to speculate and exploit the club for his own advantage. The oldest football club in Rome belongs to the fans, not to some crazy charlatan.

P.S. If lotito just wanted to "gain with Lazio", he would only need to try to make the Lazio shares price go up. Strangely enough, the shares fell down by far since he arrived, so that all the Lazio shareholders are mad at lotito.
If lotito wanted to "speculate with Lazio", he would try to get the destination of use of his lands changed and build up a quarter with the company he set up with Mezzamerda, a company that is not related at all with Lazio.

With all due respect, but yet again I can't stop but thinking and feeling that some people try to blame Lotito for everything, criticizing every move he makes, or doesn't make. You say it was possible to have the Flaminio stadium, but I take it that every normal thinking person can see this would not be a good move for a club like Lazio, it would not be profitable and it would not be big enough?

Furthermore you say that the club belongs to the fans, not to a 'crazy charlatan' - yet one sentence before that you agree that football is all about money nowadays, and that - in other words - fans have little or nothing to say in this huge business, this huge football business. Lazio does not belong to the fans, it never has, the only thing now is that - and I agree here - Lazio seems in posession of Lotito (and that is indeed a little scary as we don't really know what he wants to gain from this all), and fans (I suppose you mean the Irriducibili to a large extent here?) have nothing to say - that, yes, has been different in the past - but only the 'feeling', not the facts. Look, we sold more than 20.000 season tickets for the coming season already, Lotito has brought together a strong team that can compete with the subtop of Italy to get an Uefa Cup spot, and last but not least - he has made Lazio healthy again, some people tend to forget that he saved this club after it was left behind like a real sick animal.

Some people blame the system and (the lack of) justice in Italy, they blame the system for having 'fans' like the Irriducibili leaders in jail even before they have been found guilty (as far as we can know) - yet on the other hand they make conclusions about Lotito saying 'we will all see the real Lotito' and things like that - even though as far as anyone can tell he is only making Lazio healthy and strong again. And for that, yes, I thank him.
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Lerneby
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PostSubject: Re: Lotito trial against Irriducibili   Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:09 pm

This is obvoiusly a very heated debate, but i wrote a piece on this 1.5 year ago. Already by then I had sources confirming the camorra involvement. That the 4 guys of IRR didn't know about Casalesi.....i find somewhat hard to believe(Maybe I sound cynical, that is not my intention).
It might not be something that can be proved, but that is another matter.
I even interviewed Chinagla in the matter of camorra involvement( he denied of course).
Now, one can say that Lotito is bad or good. One can say that IRR done more bad than good.
One can really say whatever one wants. The point is: Where do we go from here?
I know that there is some very good and sane people working around the club and amongst the fans and Lazio as a club should have a much better PR/marketing facility than it haves today, given the club numerous fans abroad.
To work together as one should be a goal. Not fighting in the own ranks.
Sometimes the club and its fans acts as a spoiled baby brother.
Bascially what I want to see is more concrete results in PR/marketing, relations to the fans (and vice versa) than this squibbling about who is the most and worst laziale.
It will get us nowhere.
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Ermetico
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PostSubject: Re: Lotito trial against Irriducibili   Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:29 pm

Lerneby wrote:
This is obvoiusly a very heated debate, but i wrote a piece on this 1.5 year ago. Already by then I had sources confirming the camorra involvement. That the 4 guys of IRR didn't know about Casalesi.....i find somewhat hard to believe(Maybe I sound cynical, that is not my intention).
It might not be something that can be proved, but that is another matter.
I even interviewed Chinagla in the matter of camorra involvement( he denied of course).
Now, one can say that Lotito is bad or good. One can say that IRR done more bad than good.
One can really say whatever one wants. The point is: Where do we go from here?
I know that there is some very good and sane people working around the club and amongst the fans and Lazio as a club should have a much better PR/marketing facility than it haves today, given the club numerous fans abroad.
To work together as one should be a goal. Not fighting in the own ranks.
Sometimes the club and its fans acts as a spoiled baby brother.
Bascially what I want to see is more concrete results in PR/marketing, relations to the fans (and vice versa) than this squibbling about who is the most and worst laziale.
It will get us nowhere.


I quote it 100% in the deep meaning of your message and becuase i know you as a good ancd correct journalist.
Thanks

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PostSubject: Re: Lotito trial against Irriducibili   Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:33 pm

it's very difficult and perhaps inappropriate of me to truly comment on what goes on with Lazio inside of Italy, but in Lotito's era. the public image of Lazio elsewhere in Europe has been transformed.

Before Lotito took over, we were that bankrupt club in Italy whose fans were all racist and a dangerous bunch of people. Now, we are thought of as just a regular club, except for the fact that Roma's reputation is dragging us down (because we are stadium sharing) and we have some psychotic, violent fans known as Ultras.

Now, of course I disagree with these viewpoints BUT we need to move out of the Olimpico and fast. Any problems Roma create is also Lazio's fault in terms of the worldwide media and the afterscenes of that derby a couple of years ago brought disgust to the rest of the world. If the Flaminio was offered to us, Lotito should have took it, at least until he finds a better plan.

Lotito is not bigger than Lazio, neither are the Irrudicibili or any other group. This is simply an argument over viewpoints, this is a war that neither camp can win...this is a war where one side has to lose.
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Lerneby
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PostSubject: Re: Lotito trial against Irriducibili   Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:51 pm

Well the arena issue is bigger that Flaminio.
First of all, today the arenas are owned by councils often connected to the city. They rent the space to the clubs.
They make money.
And when people or organisations earn money in Italy, it is very hard to change :).
What lotito (and Moratti, and Cairo,etc,etc,etc) wants is to OWN the arena. Not rent it. So that they can make money out of it, maybe book bands, and host events other than football as well.
This would stop the income to the city council.
Therefor Lotito and others are given property solutions in far and remote places, that no one will be able to travel to.
Moratti in Inter has a lot of money and said in may that he will build a new arena for Inter. If he succeds with that, it is possible that people like Lotito will follow.
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Conn
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PostSubject: Re: Lotito trial against Irriducibili   Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:23 pm

To Lucky strike. I think my English is good enough, perhaps you should make an effort and try to understand better what I said.

Do not EVER try to play with my words, it's something that really upsets me. I have never said that Flaminio would be unprofitable (and many "normal" people thought it was perfectly fine for Lazio), I have never said that the fans have nothing to say in this football. When I talk about fans, I mean the fans.

If you feel loving lotito, please do. If you feel hating the Irr, please do. I have never said people should all love one or the other. I think I've only expressed my views, what I know and what I feel.
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PostSubject: Re: Lotito trial against Irriducibili   Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:03 pm

Conn wrote:
I think my English is good enough, perhaps you should make an effort and try to understand better what I said.

Do not EVER try to play with my words, it's something that really upsets me. I have never said that Flaminio would be unprofitable (and many "normal" people thought it was perfectly fine for Lazio), I have never said that the fans have nothing to say in this football. When I talk about fans, I mean the fans.

If you feel loving lotito, please do. If you feel hating the Irr, please do. I have never said people should all love one or the other. I think I've only expressed my views, what I know and what I feel.

Look, first you point out to the people here that Lotito did not accept the Flaminio stadium, and shortly after you say that Flaminio would have been perfect for Lazio. If I'm playing with your words, and maybe I am, then it's because you didn't give me a choice. Maybe I'm wrong, but I always get the feeling that some people try to blame Lotito for everything. I've read some very crazy stuff over the past months, some guys would blame the man for the global warmth - catch my drift? In any case, I didn't mean to upset you, I simply expressed my views just like you and anyone else here does, and for that I must say I don't really get why you are posting this to me now. I have never said or shown that I love Lotito (and I don't obviously), or that I hate the Irriducibili (why would I), so I don't understand why you are saying this.

In any case, I respect your opinion and I'm sure you respect mine. We are here because we all support and love SS Lazio, the club that brought football to Rome. Let's support our players, honour our colours, wave our flags and sing our songs. Loud and proud.
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Conn
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PostSubject: Re: Lotito trial against Irriducibili   Sat Aug 02, 2008 12:07 am

Lucky Strike wrote:
Conn wrote:
I think my English is good enough, perhaps you should make an effort and try to understand better what I said.

Do not EVER try to play with my words, it's something that really upsets me. I have never said that Flaminio would be unprofitable (and many "normal" people thought it was perfectly fine for Lazio), I have never said that the fans have nothing to say in this football. When I talk about fans, I mean the fans.

If you feel loving lotito, please do. If you feel hating the Irr, please do. I have never said people should all love one or the other. I think I've only expressed my views, what I know and what I feel.

Look, first you point out to the people here that Lotito did not accept the Flaminio stadium, and shortly after you say that Flaminio would have been perfect for Lazio. If I'm playing with your words, and maybe I am, then it's because you didn't give me a choice. Maybe I'm wrong, but I always get the feeling that some people try to blame Lotito for everything.

Lotito did not accept the offer to get Flaminio, and this is a fact.
Flaminio would have been very good for Lazio, this is an opinion of myself, which however is shared by many people.

What exactly puzzles you? I really don't understand the sense of your post. Are the two propositions above mutually exclusive? Please explain.

Lotito did not accept the Flaminio option because, if he had accepted it, he could not have accomplished his project to build a city around the Lazio stadium, the project he's planning to carry out in the Tiberina area, or in Valmontone, with his friend Mezzamerda.

Now, can I be allowed to blame lotito for putting his own interest above the Lazio ones without being accused of attacking our saviour with no reason?
It's the only thing that I ask, I don't think it's too much.

ciao e sempre Forza LAZIO
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PostSubject: Re: Lotito trial against Irriducibili   Sat Aug 02, 2008 12:41 am

Conn wrote:
Lucky Strike wrote:
Conn wrote:
I think my English is good enough, perhaps you should make an effort and try to understand better what I said.

Do not EVER try to play with my words, it's something that really upsets me. I have never said that Flaminio would be unprofitable (and many "normal" people thought it was perfectly fine for Lazio), I have never said that the fans have nothing to say in this football. When I talk about fans, I mean the fans.

If you feel loving lotito, please do. If you feel hating the Irr, please do. I have never said people should all love one or the other. I think I've only expressed my views, what I know and what I feel.

Look, first you point out to the people here that Lotito did not accept the Flaminio stadium, and shortly after you say that Flaminio would have been perfect for Lazio. If I'm playing with your words, and maybe I am, then it's because you didn't give me a choice. Maybe I'm wrong, but I always get the feeling that some people try to blame Lotito for everything.

Lotito did not accept the offer to get Flaminio, and this is a fact.
Flaminio would have been very good for Lazio, this is an opinion of myself, which however is shared by many people.

What exactly puzzles you? I really don't understand the sense of your post. Are the two propositions above mutually exclusive? Please explain.

Lotito did not accept the Flaminio option because, if he had accepted it, he could not have accomplished his project to build a city around the Lazio stadium, the project he's planning to carry out in the Tiberina area, or in Valmontone, with his friend Mezzamerda.

Now, can I be allowed to blame lotito for putting his own interest above the Lazio ones without being accused of attacking our saviour with no reason?
It's the only thing that I ask, I don't think it's too much.

ciao e sempre Forza LAZIO

That makes two of us, I didn't understand the sense of your post either. Anyways, no need for sarcasm, I get the feeling that you are changing your attitude towards me, and I honestly can't think of a reason why. You can blame Lotito for the global warmth if it helps, I just find it a bit hypocritical that people who would make 'accusations' (without prove) about the Irriducibili, for example, will be attacked because that is something you don't do - whereas Lotito is blamed for anything people can think of without prove, nevermind (any) knowledge about the man or the situation.

Anyways, that's it for me, this is going nowhere and so lets end this with your words - sempre forza Lazio!
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PostSubject: Re: Lotito trial against Irriducibili   Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:57 pm

Conn wrote:

There is no need to reply to free@eagle, aka jump in the old laziofever.com. He is the one who exulted when the four IRR guys were arrested and kept in jail without a process, he is the one who exulted when Toffolo was shot, he is the one that keep offending curva nord, the one that claims people to be guilty when the process still has to finish. A sad character.

A sad character ?
The sad character is to criticize who ..........................EDITED BY LF. ?
The sad character is to criticize who want to spit against our President that saved Lazo from failure ?
The sad character is to criticize who EDITED----------------------- ?
The sad character is to criticize who used for 3 years banner like "Lotito vattene" THIS IS AN ACCUSE NOT PROVED AND I EDIT THE MESSAGE.
The sad character is to criticize who said to biycot the team during the championship and hoping that Lotito ideas could fail ?
For me the sad character is to divide the Laziali without a reason.....attacking the only person that made something good for S.S.LAZIO.

Only a thing..all the world in this moment is looking like things are really.
Your words are a thing, the situation behind justice and all Lazio fans is another. Some persons are so in love with Irr that don't think that Lazio is more important.
Why don't you choose Cisco like made someone ?
Now I go on holiday with my subscription in my pocket and you'll have to talk a lot to explain what you made to confuse the others REAL Laziali.....
Sleep
In bocca al lupo a te cojn e a tutti i falliti che si sono ricoperti di ridicolo e anche di qualcos'altro.

GRAZIE CLAUDIO LOTITO PRESIDENTE OF THE FIRST TEAM OF ROME,
NOT THE FIRST TEAM OF CAMORRA !!

FORZA LAZIO, SEMPRE !!!



ATTENTION FREE EAGLE.
I REQUEST SEVERAL TIMES AND I TRY TO CATCH YOUR ATTENTION WITH PRIVATE MESSAGES AND MAIL.
YOU LL NEVER ANSWER BACK TO ME.
YOU ARE HERE ACCUSING MEMBERS WITH PRECISE MESSAGES.
I CAN'T STAND ON THIS ARGUMENT ANYMORE.
ERMETICO
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PostSubject: Re: Lotito trial against Irriducibili   Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:02 am

I wait until today a response from free@eagle about my questions but nothing comes to my mail or Private messages box.
At this point i re open this topic with a precise invitation: to keep the discussion inside traks and not over taken as a personal conflict or revenge.
For free eagle : I am sure that you read my messages and your silence is worst then any other action.
Grazie

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PostSubject: Re: Lotito trial against Irriducibili   Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:51 pm

Conn wrote:
usampa wrote:
Quote :
Some people claim that he is only out to make a personal investment out of Lazio


It is obvious that he wants to get destination of use of his lands, because of Lazio and to build little city and stadium. If that happened , Lotito would become richer , but on the other hand , it would mean more sunny days for SS Lazio. If you want to gain something, you should give something first.

I think many people in this forum lack crucial information. Last year the Rome city Council offered Flaminio to Lazio, but Lotito refused the offer! We could have had Flaminio, already, all for us, ffs!

With Flaminio, Lazio would have had "more sunny days", but Lotito would not have "become richer", because you can't build anything around Flaminio.

Certainly I must be wrong with this ridiculous criticizing lotito attitude Very Happy

flaminio stadium has architectural guidelines fixed by the nervi's family
(nervi was the guy who built it, now he is dead) and former major veltroni explained it.
it's an old stadium, no one wants to spend an euro to rebuild it respecting nervi's will.
the stadium is an ancient heritage, excellent for rugby.
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PostSubject: Re: Lotito trial against Irriducibili   Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:23 pm

guardia alta wrote:
Conn wrote:
usampa wrote:
Quote :
Some people claim that he is only out to make a personal investment out of Lazio


It is obvious that he wants to get destination of use of his lands, because of Lazio and to build little city and stadium. If that happened , Lotito would become richer , but on the other hand , it would mean more sunny days for SS Lazio. If you want to gain something, you should give something first.

I think many people in this forum lack crucial information. Last year the Rome city Council offered Flaminio to Lazio, but Lotito refused the offer! We could have had Flaminio, already, all for us, ffs!

With Flaminio, Lazio would have had "more sunny days", but Lotito would not have "become richer", because you can't build anything around Flaminio.

Certainly I must be wrong with this ridiculous criticizing lotito attitude Very Happy

flaminio stadium has architectural guidelines fixed by the nervi's family
(nervi was the guy who built it, now he is dead) and former major veltroni explained it.
it's an old stadium, no one wants to spend an euro to rebuild it respecting nervi's will.
the stadium is an ancient heritage, excellent for rugby.

Veltroni explained it... what, exactly???
As fas as I heard, and I still have his quotes from April 13, 2006, Veltroni said that Lazio could have extended the Flaminio structure to reach a 40thousands seats capability. And the Nervi's family had already agreed. Veltroni had also said that it could have been possible to create underground park spaces.

So far lotito only proved he did not want to invest in the project (for his own reasons). Saying that no one wants to spend an euro on that seems a little bit too much to me.
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PostSubject: Re: Lotito trial against Irriducibili   Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:46 pm

ROMA: VELTRONI AL VIA RIQUALIFICAZIONE FLAMINIO (2) = (Adnkronos) - In particolare, il progetto, articolato su due fasi, si propone di riportare il quartiere al centro dell'attenzione nazionale ed internazionale. Nella prima tranche di interventi è prevista la riqualificazione degli spazi aperti e le aree verdi del «Nuovo Parco del Villaggio Olimpico», oltra alla sistemazione delle aree sottostanti il viadotto di Corso Francia. Tra gli interventi più significativi previsti nella seconda fase, invece, il recupero di p.zza Gentile da Fabriano, la riconfigurazione di via Guido Reni, la realizzazione di un parcheggio interrato di 428 posti e l'intervento su via Pietro de Coubertin. Per la prima fase di lavori la Giunta ha stanziato 5.620.000 di euro dei totali 10 mln previsti. L'inizio dei lavori è previsto per il mese di ottobre, e la conclusione per il giugno del 2008. (Rob/Col/Adnkronos) 20-GEN-07 14:13 NNNN nnnn

thanks for your reply.
428 car parked underground. i mean just 428 cars ...
that was the ridicolus offer by veltroni, it makes me crazy.
i prefer not to talk about the rest of the project.
actually i don't want to get in troblue, flaminio politacal solution was a way to consider lazio the second club in the capital.
and now veltroni is gone.
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Mad Dog
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PostSubject: Re: Lotito trial against Irriducibili   Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:35 pm

This issue and all the situations connected with it cannot be argued in white or black terms. The reason we had/had a war between tifosi is because people claim it's either all Lotito's fault or all IRR's fault. They both comitted huge mistakes during those 2 years, and everyone paid for it, not least Lazio! There was a war...and Lotito won that war, big time. That's a fact. The IRR lost and their leaders paid with their own liberty. Of course it's a scandal that the legal process has been delayed for so long, unacceptable, a legal tragedy.
And the fact that Lotito won doesn't change the fact that he is a lousy president, a generally shitty person with a perverted grasp of reality and most important he is the most shameful representative of S.S. Lazio 1900 one could imagine. That is a a fact to most people who follow Lazio closely, and it would have emerged clearly with time for all to see. But that doesn't mean that Lotito doesn't do some things well and that the IRR leaders didn't make mistakes regardless of what kind of person Lotito is. Both Lotito and the IRR leaders have their own agenda and fight for their own position, power and benefits without any concern for anyone but themselves. Anyone who believes the contrary is naive.

My personal opinion is that these 2 sides nearly destroyed our Lazio and I can't accept any of their pathetic attempts to justify themselves by pointing on errors of the other party, past , present and future, that have nothing to do with their own personal war.

When IRR came and said that we HAD to believe them and Chinaglia (that crazy fantastic story of a huge hungarian pharmaceutical company buying a football team story he had tried so many times in the past with the same shady people), that we were either with them or against them, that this was war and that if we didn't support and believe Chinaglia and Beautiful Anthony blindly and faithfully we were with Lotito and we would have to run from Rome some day, my thoughts were ...hang on here, stop trying to fool, divide and threaten the Laziali, this is YOUR war, don't come and make people chose sides when your side is so obvioulsy a big buffala and you are not able to see it because you are blinded by your hate for Lotito and your war to protect your position, power and influence which is under threat. But they didn't listen to anyone or slow down, they fought their war and they have to assume responsability for it themselves which they are doing at the moment. I think they deserved a fair trial and preventive incarceration and domestic arrest for so long is unacceptable without a due process and clear evidence proved in a court of law by impartial judges. But it was war and in war the other side, Lotito, is allowed to defend himself and fight back. Their mistake was their style, lack of diplomacy, their unwillingness to slow down and listen to reason, intimidating tactics, and their decision to fight a war against Lotito based on a story which wasn't true and in fact turned out very dangerous againt them in several ways. And part of their mistake was to involve and force this war upon the Laziali and to demand the support of the Laziali for something which was a farce, a lie, an extortion (whether or not they knew it, I don't have a clue). A strategic suicide where the outcome was obvious to anyone listening to the radio shows of the VDN at the time since it was the IRR to raise the stakes and the intensity of that war, day after day, for months and months, bringing to a level where it was sure to backfire in their own faces. This was their mistake and that is what divided the Laziali and continues to divide them because people use the failures and shortcomings of the other side to justify that they are the saints, or the martyrs, the saviors of the fighters for the true cause.

This was their mistake and miscalculation...and 100 mistakes by Lotito every day until the day he dies, a thousand Kellers and Esteban Gonzalez, banners to promote himself, stadium at Valmontone won't and can't erase or justify the mistake they made at the time and the division it brought among Laziali. In a way this mistake gave a reason to thousands of Laziali to protect and support Lotito in the most hypocritical of ways (the way Jump has been doing) despite his mistakes, his lack of style, his lies, his arrogance, provocations and failures. In a way they made him stronger and people can continue to use the story of the camorra, chinaglia, and folkloristic "cornetto e cappuccino" slip , "lotito vattene banners" as a way to legitimize Lotito (because of their hate of the IRR or for political reasons or jealousy, envy) when there is very little in that LITTLE man to respect and I'm sure that without that war , if people would have been left to make up their own minds without being bullied , 95% would have turned against Lotito by now.

In my humble opinion...
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nando
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PostSubject: Re: Lotito trial against Irriducibili   Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:35 am

Mad Dog wrote:
This issue and all the situations connected with it cannot be argued in white or black terms. The reason we had/had a war between tifosi is because people claim it's either all Lotito's fault or all IRR's fault. They both comitted huge mistakes during those 2 years, and everyone paid for it, not least Lazio! There was a war...and Lotito won that war, big time. That's a fact. The IRR lost and their leaders paid with their own liberty. Of course it's a scandal that the legal process has been delayed for so long, unacceptable, a legal tragedy.
And the fact that Lotito won doesn't change the fact that he is a lousy president, a generally shitty person with a perverted grasp of reality and most important he is the most shameful representative of S.S. Lazio 1900 one could imagine. That is a a fact to most people who follow Lazio closely, and it would have emerged clearly with time for all to see. But that doesn't mean that Lotito doesn't do some things well and that the IRR leaders didn't make mistakes regardless of what kind of person Lotito is. Both Lotito and the IRR leaders have their own agenda and fight for their own position, power and benefits without any concern for anyone but themselves. Anyone who believes the contrary is naive.

My personal opinion is that these 2 sides nearly destroyed our Lazio and I can't accept any of their pathetic attempts to justify themselves by pointing on errors of the other party, past , present and future, that have nothing to do with their own personal war.

When IRR came and said that we HAD to believe them and Chinaglia (that crazy fantastic story of a huge hungarian pharmaceutical company buying a football team story he had tried so many times in the past with the same shady people), that we were either with them or against them, that this was war and that if we didn't support and believe Chinaglia and Beautiful Anthony blindly and faithfully we were with Lotito and we would have to run from Rome some day, my thoughts were ...hang on here, stop trying to fool, divide and threaten the Laziali, this is YOUR war, don't come and make people chose sides when your side is so obvioulsy a big buffala and you are not able to see it because you are blinded by your hate for Lotito and your war to protect your position, power and influence which is under threat. But they didn't listen to anyone or slow down, they fought their war and they have to assume responsability for it themselves which they are doing at the moment. I think they deserved a fair trial and preventive incarceration and domestic arrest for so long is unacceptable without a due process and clear evidence proved in a court of law by impartial judges. But it was war and in war the other side, Lotito, is allowed to defend himself and fight back. Their mistake was their style, lack of diplomacy, their unwillingness to slow down and listen to reason, intimidating tactics, and their decision to fight a war against Lotito based on a story which wasn't true and in fact turned out very dangerous againt them in several ways. And part of their mistake was to involve and force this war upon the Laziali and to demand the support of the Laziali for something which was a farce, a lie, an extortion (whether or not they knew it, I don't have a clue). A strategic suicide where the outcome was obvious to anyone listening to the radio shows of the VDN at the time since it was the IRR to raise the stakes and the intensity of that war, day after day, for months and months, bringing to a level where it was sure to backfire in their own faces. This was their mistake and that is what divided the Laziali and continues to divide them because people use the failures and shortcomings of the other side to justify that they are the saints, or the martyrs, the saviors of the fighters for the true cause.

This was their mistake and miscalculation...and 100 mistakes by Lotito every day until the day he dies, a thousand Kellers and Esteban Gonzalez, banners to promote himself, stadium at Valmontone won't and can't erase or justify the mistake they made at the time and the division it brought among Laziali. In a way this mistake gave a reason to thousands of Laziali to protect and support Lotito in the most hypocritical of ways (the way Jump has been doing) despite his mistakes, his lack of style, his lies, his arrogance, provocations and failures. In a way they made him stronger and people can continue to use the story of the camorra, chinaglia, and folkloristic "cornetto e cappuccino" slip , "lotito vattene banners" as a way to legitimize Lotito (because of their hate of the IRR or for political reasons or jealousy, envy) when there is very little in that LITTLE man to respect and I'm sure that without that war , if people would have been left to make up their own minds without being bullied , 95% would have turned against Lotito by now.

In my humble opinion...

good post, welcome back by the way
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free@eagle
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PostSubject: Re: Lotito trial against Irriducibili   Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:28 am

Mad Dog wrote:
There was a war...and Lotito won that war, big time. That's a fact. The IRR lost and their leaders paid with their own liberty. .

There was a war but to stay with Lotito, president of the Società ( also if he's an idiot ) means to stay with S.S.Lazio....
to stay with Irr means to stay with .... ???
There was a war and we had only to wait, who has faith wait, who has faith..

CHI AMA LA LAZIO VA A VEDERE LA LAZIO
Sergio Cragnotti

Grazie Claudio Lotito, President of S.S.Lazio 1900
the first team of Rome, not the first team of camorra
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Mad Dog
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PostSubject: Re: Lotito trial against Irriducibili   Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:57 pm

It' easy to say that now Jump. At the time many people believed the IRR because they had been right many tims in the past. And the IRR probably believed Chinaglia. And Chinaglia was not just anybody, he was the biggest Lazio hero of all times, of course it was hard to imagine he had come back to fool all Laziali. Sometimes people choose to trust others and place their entire faith in others and what they are saying, sometimes reality later shows that it was the wrong decision.

But it's ugly to come back later and mock people who believed in someone or something in good faith. They did nothing wrong, they trusted Laziali and hoped for a better future. Those who divide are those that cannot accept and respect the views and beliefs of others.
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guardia alta
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PostSubject: Re: Lotito trial against Irriducibili   Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:15 pm

well ... actually chinaglia's past is written on the internet.
you just have to look back at his prevoius attempts to get inside clubs such as marsala, lanciano, etc.

the staff group always included people like zoltan silvas, the hungarian and peaople from the diana gas company.

IMHO right now chinaglia is a beautiful picture with his finger pointed.
that's it.
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howie
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PostSubject: Re: Lotito trial against Irriducibili   Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:53 am

This could be a solution (or at least a consideration)?



http://www.goal.com/en/Articolo.aspx?ContenutoId=832873

Fans owned club. They say even top 10 Italian teams are possible? Confirmed anyone?
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PostSubject: Re: Lotito trial against Irriducibili   Today at 11:17 pm

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