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Caxi
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:35 pm

your reasons for preferring Cigarini and Dessena are the same as mine for preferring Matuzalem.

you think that one or two years down the line, if we had Cigarini and Dessena and Lotito and Parma, who are probably at this stage back in serie A, have to make secret bids, I'd put my house on the fact that Parma would outbid Lotito.

then both our young talents would be gone. at least Matuzalem and Zarate are in Lotito's hands and nobody can take them away from us if Lotito opens his purse.
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ClockworkOrange
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:47 pm

Caxi wrote:
I realise we have yet to buy Zarate and Matuzalem, but we easilt recuperate thet money if we qualify for the UEFA cup and then maybe there is enough money to buy them outright, whereas, there is a chance that if we brought in Dessena and Cigarini, that we would spend 10 million euro to own half of the players, we would fail to qualify for Europe, Parma could get promoted, raise enough cash to buy them back and then we have to go find good quality players with a lack of money and we could end up in Serie B.

it's a matter of opinion and nobody's is right or wrong as such, but I think the deals we have done are better than the deals we could have done.

I can't blame Cigarini and Dessena for Parma's relegation and I don't blame Matuzalem for Zaragoza's, but I believe Matuzalem has shown more in his career than either of the Parma protagonists and also, I think he is a player we need more.

and whatever reasons for Di Canio, Domizzi and Pinzi leaving the club are immaterial to me. facts are facts.

I think zarate might be a good signing altough very expensive .. and I'm afraid that he somewhat of a luxury item for us .. and I have a bad feeling Loito only brought him in to boost the sale of seasontickets .. hopefully I'm wrong.

Well if that scenario happens as you describes .. we would have gotten our money back when Parma bought back those players .. which obviously would have put as back to where we started but without losing any money
And it's kinda hard to compare their careers .. Dessena/Cigarini just started theirs and Matuzalem .. well he is closing in on the end of his as I see it

And I don't think that qualifying to the uefacup brings all that money .. maybe if you make it to the quarterfinals or so

To me matuzalem has shown .. disloyalty (using article 17) .. failure to establish him self as a keyplayer in a big team(I count Lazio as a big team) .. also considering his high wages & the fact that he had played only a few games last season because of injury ... and all that to me makes it a bad signing

But as you say we all have different opinions about this!
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Caxi
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:22 pm

Definitely. Matuzalem is a risk, but a few years ago, he was the star player in a really good Shakhtar side and he has a bad few years by his standards, has wanted out, doesn't want to play in a second division and maybe, jst maybe, he can rediscover his form.

Cigarini and Dessena? I don't know much about them. Italy have a lot of "talents", but I had find the majority of these "talents" very average.
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Laziophilic
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:51 pm

Do you what is the problem Caxi, you are underestimating two players who are playing for the U-21 side and I will till you that they will become a future Azzuri star players.

I am a follower of the Calcio sisnce early 90s, and if you are aware few italians like Nesta and Totti were playing for their clubs since their early childhood, but the likes of Pirlo (Reggina/Brecia), Gattusso (Salerntina), Grosso (Perugia), Oddo (Verona), Toni (Vicenza), Zambrotta (Bari), Cassano (Bari) and too many others launched their career with minors and ended as world cup winners!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just look for Juve who brought back Givinco (Empoli), Marchisio (Emopli), and De Cegile (Siena) and BTW all of them are included in the U-21 side and the Azzuri Olympic team! didn't Empoli relegated to Serie B?? why Juve call them back to their 1st team next season even though they are too young?? are Juve managment stupids or we are the clever ones??

This is a video for Cigarini, have a nice watch!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zA39GiDzCW0

Last but not least, follow the Italian Olympic team in China this month and take a close look.
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Caxi
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:57 pm

All the previous names you mentioned are players I knew would play for the Azzurri when they were at those teams.

I know Cigarini and Dessena will probably play for the Azzurri, I've seen them play, when I said I don't know much about them, what I meant was, from what I've seen of them, I'm not sure how great they will be.

I could list a load of U21 "stars" who turned out to be disappointing. It's too early to say with them, and my motto always is, stick with what's tried and trusted.
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Matrim
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:04 pm

Quote :
I might be a good idea to buy a backup to Ledesma after all since he is talking about leaving next summer .. and I prefer Dessena/Cigarin to a random foreign talent since they have played and proven themselves in Serie A

They have proven very little thus far (who the hell is Dessena to cost 8 million?) and why would Cigarini go to a club where he will be a sub anyway? Maybe it's just me but I would much rather have two competent CBs who will rejuvinate our defence than a vice-Ledesma for 10 million euro. And I still don't get it why people are outraged at us not buying Italian talents and not when we miss out on foreign talents. As Baronio's case shows, Italian talents can be quite a burden to their clubs, it's not as if they have more some mystical sense of loyalty unlike other nationalities.

Matuzalem is probably a temporary measure, we can't really build half a team in one summer, so for now it will be a loan, if he does well, we will try to strike a deal, rather than use the inflated buy-out option (whose size is, I believe. still unconfirmed).

Quote :
Juve has sent away Nocerino, Palladino, Del Prete, Lanzafame this summer .. so I think they are willing to give up their youth if only they get something they want in return.

Of course, I just don't think ever really wanted Mauri.

Quote :
Domizzi is more accomplished and no more expensive than any of the central defenders we have signed. i know Napoli fans (where i live there are lots), and they rate him very highly.

I am sure Dinamo Bucharest fans rate Radu very highly too, how exactly does it prove anything?

Quote :
I could list a load of U21 "stars" who turned out to be disappointing. It's too early to say with them, and my motto always is, stick with what's tried and trusted.

While I would not go that far, buying young players is basically a gamble. Maybe Cigarini will become a Pirlo, maybe he will become a Baronio. Nobody knows. What I know is that for what it would have cost us to buy half of Cigarini we bought Radu who is already playing in his country's NT and who can start often and get proper development (unlike Cigarini if he comes to Lazio right now as mentioned above).
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Caxi
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:29 pm

I have to agree with you Matrim on pretty much everything.

I like young players coming to the club, I like Kozak for example, but he didn't cost what Cigarini and Dessena cost and also, he's tall, something we lack in the squad, so he's not much of a risk.

The fact that Inter, Roma, Milan and Juve didn't appear interested in Cigarini and Dessena at all seems to suggest they're waiting for the boys to prove themselves too.

Zarate has shown much more potential too. There's may reasons why Lotito decided to overlook these guys.

The truth is, we are not rebuilding a squad...we are building around some players, like Ledesma, Pandev and Rocchi...we need to add accordingly, strengthen where we were previously weak...you can't go spending a lot of money on youn gitalian talents in the hope they will go on to become the future of Italian football...it's just too much of a risk, short-term and long-term and of course, if they do turn out to be fantastic players, we may regret our decision...but it's just not something we should take a chance on right now.
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Broencoceleste
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:12 pm

I agree 100% with Caxi and Matrim...

We want Lazio get back on track as a respected team in Serie A ASAP don't we?

cigarini, marchisio, dessena etc are the unproven players, we must remember the Baronio case, not all of them gonna be superstars... it will be gambling to have them... let alone their expensive price because they are really highly rated right now..

I don't really understand what are you guys complaining about here.. this mercato is a very-very good mercato.. and maybe almost perfect..

maybe those guys (matuzalem and zarate) are very expensive especially for Lazio's wallet right now, but we have the chance only to loan them if it turns out that they are not too good. If they are really-really good, Lotito might buy them, only God knows where will he get the money from, but I'm sure that he'll try to satisfy the fans at that time, like he is doing right now.. the fans want to get star players.. he is getting them.. in Lotito's way of course Suspect

So the most important thing is to get back on track as one of the most important teams in Serie A.. don't mind the way to achieve, don't mind the foreign players or local, don't mind everything.. as long as they're legal.. I'd say do it!!

if we finish in the top four or above.. nobody will complain anymore.. trust me..
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Galles.
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:07 am

Maybe almost perfect mercato? scratch

I don`t know if you mean that in context with the money available. If so it`s better than last years,problem being there`s areas in the squad that haven`t been improved for years now

It`s sad to say but yes I think Mauri has past his best at Lazio now- but having the odd player in the Azzurri won`t raise the profile of the club.
I don`t want Rocchi going to the Olimpics or any other players sneaking off to the Africa Cup of Nations etc. look what injuries did to us again
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howie
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:26 am

This topic is one of the most intriguing and interesting. I kept reading from the front and I have completely lost my thought and don't know what to say. I tell you...we have great football analyzers here. Could (seriously) do well maybe as a vice of vice sporting director. cheers

I'm also quite happy with our mercato. At least Lottito can see now that players like Muta or Gaby won't turn into Pirlo and Gatusso in the season. Or that Rossi will always come up with mind bending tactics that can turn the team into a Champions League machine. I see the right steps have been taken although not all yet. Why the hell can't we sell anybody??

With Matuzalem in, i think our midfield section is quite solid now. At least we won't rely 100% of our tactics on Ledesma now. He is a bit creative compared to Pinzi. I really like Pinzi too. I think if we get him, he's the type of character that could develop into Lazio's captain. But Italian players are generally more expensive for Italian teams. Don't know why but that's just the way it is. Maybe pride? Also Pinzi is of course much more proven in Serie A. Maybe that's why Udinese is holding out for him. But knowing Lottito, i think it's because Udinese doesn't want to loan him but sell him directly. Or maybe Lottio is offering Baronio + Makinwa for Pinzi. Very Happy
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rockybalboa83
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:06 pm

Matrim wrote:
c. testa wrote:
look at the Sampdoria team. last season, they played many games with 11 Italians in the lineup, the nearly made the Champions League. Udinese came 4th a couple of years ago with a squad of mainly Italians (Pinzi was there).

Your logic is weird as Inter are the champions and they play with zero italians on the pitch quite often. Of course, you can make a competitive team with only Italians in it...or you can pull an Empoli and get relegated. If two players are roughly equal in skills, sure, it's better to sign the Italian - but not because he will be any more loyal but because he will not have any adaptation issues.

Quote :
I doubt Matulazem loyality,

I doubt every player's loyalty. De Silvestri's Lazialita did not stop him from signing with us only until 2010, for instance. We need to have a healthy environment in the club, sure having players who are also Laziali will hep for that cause but it's not the only way. The better approach is to have a project in which the players will believe in and most importantly to pay them well and not do what Lotito wants to do - give out new contracts as if they are gestures from him that players don't deserve at all. If we can't afford someone's wage demands, we should simply tell his agent the truth, not postpone meetings the way lotito did with ledesma's agent recently.

Gentlemen,

I totally take your points..Ideally you would prefer to have 11 committed Lazio men rather than all foreigners..But was anyone complaining when we had the likes of Veron, Nedved,Crespo.Stankovic etc etc??? Look at the legacy Lazio have in Argentina for example! Like the Spanish eye Real Madrid as the top Level, Argentines see Lazio as a sense of prestige...And these players fight for the Lazio crest..As they have for a long time..Lets not be too picky..Lazio are in an important stage right now..We need to respond from a poor season and Lotito has made some impressive signings..Yes they are not italian but they are great talents who will fight for the club..

Russotto...Gentlemen, this guy grew up in the lazio youth system and a fallout with GEA agency which he had to sign a deal with for his career path at Lazio and he chose not to sign and went abroad to Switzerland! How Laziale is this guy? And now he is saying how much he loves Napoli?

We have a great trident in Zarate Pandev and Rocchi..One of the best in the league in my opinion..so lets not complain..

Pinzi, again would be great to have a player that is laziale but again we need a player of very creative abilities and pinzi in my opinion doesnt fit that role...We need spark, and regardless of already slating Matuzalem as disloyal he is going to give us spark and will be a great link to the trident and allow Ledesma to play his game..

Lets not read too much into this..Before we were complaining that Lotito did nothing in the mercato and now he brings in some great talent and we are complaining that Matuzalem should be Pinzi??? Zarate should be Russotto??? Cmon I think we know structurally we need these players with such talent because we lack it..its a great thing..we will see a lazio with more structure with more flair..lazio be proud of that and support them..
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The Big Payback
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:21 pm

You're spot on there balboa. We still have talented Italians in our squad like De Silvestri, Rocchi, Foggia and to a lesser extent Mauri who had a poor season last season. Then there is also Firmani who does not have great ability but he did manage to bag 2 or 3 goals last season by getting himself in the box coming from midfield. Not to mention his unquestionable dedication to Lazio and the supporters.
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Caxi
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:37 pm

howie, rockybalboa83 and The Big Payback have all made points I agree with. I don't really see this non-italian argument as an issue really as it has been pointed out we have a good bunch of Italians here, maybe they're not in the first team, but they're here and it's up to them to earn their place.
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Ermetico
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:00 pm

Are we going out for dinner? just joking...

I am reading with interest your conversation.

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ClockworkOrange
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:05 am

In my view it's not a question of having an all Italian-Lazio or not .. I think it's more a question of what you priorities in football

I agree totally with Piojo(as I interpret him) that for me to be able to identify with the team is the most important thing .. in my eyes we need a bandiera .. we need Lazialita .. I want to see the players play with the same passion as I'm showing as a fan

I don't say that the signing we have made this far are bad .. Rozenhal might become the leader of the defence we have been lacking .. Radu showed great promise and hopefully will continue to develope .. Carrizo comes with promise of a great future .. Zarate is very good as he showed in Birmingham (and hopefully he stays after this season).. Lichtsteiner I know nothing about but he is young and a Swiss nationalteam player .. but I don't get the signing of Matuzalem .. a mercenary in my eyes (6 clubs in 9 seasons) .. he might be good we'll have to wait and see but I don't see it as wise longterm signing .. Fernandez (if he comes since we used the non-EU spot for Matuzalem) might be great .. so they might all be good signings skillwise

I admit I don't like this new world of football .. no loyalty, no honour, all about money, no sense of identity .. Arsenal for example last season had an average of about 1 english player in the starting lineup .. I guess it was something similiar for Inter .. some might say so what .. they are succesful clubs .. well they are .. but is that what's important? .. at any cost?

And I think this is acctually the big question .. what we priorities in football .. for me I love seeing a player like Firmani .. some of you might think he is quite bad .. yes he doesn't score those beatiful goals .. no overhead kicks .. not those fantastic passes .. but for me to see a player play with that passion playing with so much pride .. well that's what I want to see .. a player to whom the club means as much as it does for me

Since Lotito uses Arsenal as a club he want's to copy .. I would say that ManU is a better club to copy
ManU built on homegrown players .. players that has given the fans something to identify with and also given the club continuity .. having a solid foundation has allowed them to focus on signing big talents and since they nowadays only buy very few players each summer they can pay more for each player and so they are able to buy the best available

I know we don't have the silly money ManU has .. but then in my view it's even more important to do good business .. focusing on getting a solid foundation to build upon .. unlike now when we sign a bunch of players each summer .. we're rebuilding each summer instead of building that strong core to build around .. that's why I wanted us to go for players like Pinzi, Domizzi, Russotto, Dessena, Cigarini, Marchisio in my eyes these players together with Carizzo, De Silvestri, Radu, Kolarov, Pandev could have been the foundation for Lazio to build upon for years to come .. in my view this would mean we might have the financial muscles in the future to focus on signing high class players like Zarate each summer
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Caxi
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:19 am

hmmm...but whose to say the likes of Cigarini and Dessena will fight with as much passion for the Lazio shirt than Zarate or Carrizo? Just because players are italian doesn't mean they will fight harder in our colours. In fact, it may now be the opposite given the Argentine heritage of this club that we established in the Cragnotti era.

Man United are a fine example of this. Take Carrick, Ferdinand or Hargreaves. They're english players but they don't show the same devotion to the shirt as Keane, Beckham or Scholes did back in 1999. Why? Because they were lifelong Manchester United fans or at least they knew what it meant to be wearing those colours. Firmani, in my eyes, knows what being laziale is and he lives it. I believe if I set foot on that pitch, I would show you more passion than Cigarini or any young italian player ever would in our colours. Why? Because this is the club I love and I have always loved.

Of course we'd all want to see laziales in the shirts we are proud of but what I want as a passionate Lazio fan is passionate Lazio players. The fact Zarate and Lichtsteiner came to us over other clubs is enough of a desire to me. Isn't it the same reason you are wanting Behrami to go, because he has shown he doesn't really care about the club? Yet didn't we all applaud and praise him for what he did with that derby goal and we all resonated with how much it appeared to mean to him and us?

The irony of this debate is that we all want the exact same thing. It's just that we disagree on how is best to get it.
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Darran
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:32 am

Some valid points noted.

I do agree it is quite ridiculous we have so many foreigners, of course I would love a 70% italian and 30% foreign Lazio. But then again who is to say that with that, we would have a Lazio which gives 110%? Behrami is a very good instance, I liked him, he was the very definition of what playing for Lazio is, he fought hard and always gave 110%. But still he held Lazio in his hand and used article 17, that is disrespecting the club.

Right now, we have ideally 2 Italian NT players (De Silvestri and Rocchi) in our lineup. And in time to come, Tuia and Faraoni, Mendicino is also showing some promise right now. The way I look at it, Lotito is building for the future, a strong base to have while nurturing our talent. Who is our bandiere? For now, it could be Rocchi, Cribari or who knows even Rozhenal for their leadership qualities. But in the long run, I would expect players who bleed Lazio to be one like De Silvestri, provided we managed to keep him beyond his contract.

For us to do just that, we need to be become competitive. We need to be fighting for the top 4 spots every season, and this mercato is an instant example of that. Matuzalem echoes our long term objectives. We have really done very well, maybe short of 2 more signings (Moti and Fernandez) but if the team gels well, there is no reason why we cannot surpass our objective which is to finish in the top 6.

If for instance, players like Matuzalem gives their all and respect the club, I would have no qualms in having him. But I share the opinion of ClockworkOrange that our bandiere has to be someone Lazio and a good leader, like what Nesta was.
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Caput Mundi
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:00 am

its not that the foreigners we are signing are no good, its just that we are starting to lose lazialita` at the club

and yes those Italians from other parts of Italy will be mercenaries too, that's football.

the only foreigners we should sign are the ones like Zarate, Carrizo, Pandev, Ledesma, Radu - the ones with exceptional ability.

but why do we need average foreigners like Manfredini and Makinwa, and dont say money because these guys are not cheap!! we could sign a laziale for less cost. I'd rather use the young lads from the primavera that spend all their life dreaming of playing for Lazio in front of Curva Nord.

if you asked the fans, the ones who are at lo Stadio each week, i am positive they would say they want more lazialita`

we need to find the right mix in the team, balance of guys like Firmani with guys like Pandev. when we do that, I can assure you we will be a real powerhouse again.

why we are comparing Zarate and Russotto I don't know.

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Caxi
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:15 pm

I think people are comparing Zarate and Russotto because their both of a similar age and although Russotto is a laziale, the argument that some peolple have put forward is that Zarate is perhaps more passionate about this club. Of course it is possible to compare the two as only one is wearing our colours, but I can see why such suggestions are being made, based on what both players have said in the media.

Some laziales are mercenaries unfortunately, that is the nature of the game, but mercenaries can also bring passion (Behrami). What you regard as being appropriate is a question of taste.

I would love to see Russotto at the club, but taking ability and talent out of the question, on sheer personality alone, I would rather see Zarate play for us. But as it has been said, players such as Domizzi and Pinzi can only add to the club.
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:04 pm

Well I for one like the international note Lazio is showing,it makes it easier for me as a non-Italian to identify with the club,daydreaming of wearing the biancoceleste jersey.

That's would be impossible if,say,I were a fan of Athletic Bilbao Twisted Evil

Forza Lazio no matter what!

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Caput Mundi
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:56 pm

Caxi wrote:
I think people are comparing Zarate and Russotto because their both of a similar age and although Russotto is a laziale, the argument that some peolple have put forward is that Zarate is perhaps more passionate about this club. Of course it is possible to compare the two as only one is wearing our colours, but I can see why such suggestions are being made, based on what both players have said in the media.

Some laziales are mercenaries unfortunately, that is the nature of the game, but mercenaries can also bring passion (Behrami). What you regard as being appropriate is a question of taste.

I would love to see Russotto at the club, but taking ability and talent out of the question, on sheer personality alone, I would rather see Zarate play for us. But as it has been said, players such as Domizzi and Pinzi can only add to the club.

Zarate is probably a better player, but he is a mercenary too - he went to Al-Sadd in Qatar!!!!

Russotto said as soon as the mercato opened - I want Lazio. You're telling me that with all these players we're signing, we could not have got Russotto?? No reason why we couldn't get them both, seeing as we're still being linked with Fernandez.

Behrami was a fighter, but that's just his personality. we need a player who will fight for the club off the pitch too when its time to extend contracts.

just because Russotto joined Napoli and said he's happy doesnt make him a mercenary. He is a professional, he needs to further his own career too. you cant expect him to join Napoli and not be happy, or not care. All players say they love the club when they sign a contract.

Football wise- there is nothing wrong with the players we have signed. They are all good players. There is something missing though- lazialita`

if you asked every abbonato in Curva Nord, I reckon at least 85% would say they want more laziali in the squad, and those guys are the fans that matter because they have been there each week for years and years. many of us haven't had that chance.

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nomade
Son of Maestrelli
Son of Maestrelli


Number of posts : 233
Age : 32
Country and city : Alexandria, Egypt
Laziale since : 1998
Registration date : 2008-05-23

PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:17 pm

Some players just learn how to be laziali as time goes by, they grow fond of the colors and the fans and they absorb the mentality just as well. What matters is how professional and committed is the player, having passion for the game and giving all to the club. How can we judge players bluntly as mercenaries, it's their freaking job...
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The Big Payback
Curva Maestrelli
Curva Maestrelli


Number of posts : 206
Age : 25
Country and city : England, Sunderland
Laziale since : 2003
Registration date : 2008-05-25

PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:18 pm

nomade wrote:
Some players just learn how to be laziali as time goes by, they grow fond of the colors and the fans and they absorb the mentality just as well. What matters is how professional and committed is the player, having passion for the game and giving all to the club. How can we judge players bluntly as mercenaries, it's their freaking job...
I think Muydingayi was one of these players.
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Caput Mundi
LFever Team Member
LFever Team Member


Number of posts : 1434
Age : 24
Country and city : South Australia
Laziale since : nascita
Registration date : 2008-05-23

PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:28 pm

nomade wrote:
How can we judge players bluntly as mercenaries, it's their freaking job...

that is exactly why Russotto said he is happy to have joined Napoli.

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Caxi
Son of Maestrelli
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Number of posts : 3884
Age : 27
Country and city : Ireland
Laziale since : 1995
Registration date : 2008-05-23

PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:44 pm

nomade wrote:
Some players just learn how to be laziali as time goes by, they grow fond of the colors and the fans and they absorb the mentality just as well. What matters is how professional and committed is the player, having passion for the game and giving all to the club. How can we judge players bluntly as mercenaries, it's their freaking job...

Very well put, yes, I'm not really judging them for being mercenaries, I don't expect them to be angels but I do expect them to be professional and passionate. I believe Zarate will be a great example of passion. Money shouldn't play a part.
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