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Magnoem
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:56 pm

An interesting topic, and I might be repeating some thoughts but I will still try to have a go on what I think.

First of all I have to say that I also like to have more homegrown players, more guys who could associate with the club. My favourite one's were the likes of Nesta (it was one of the saddest days to see him leave), now De Silvestri is carrying the flag of the home buy. But in modern football such players are rarity, you could count the examples on one hand's fingers. On another note, there have been some greats who were great and idolised players, but never really attached to one club (like Vieri, Nedved, Mancini), and there were foreigners who are still loved - like Simeone, Gazza, others.

The issue of Behrami as a mercenary have been hung up as an example, but it's interesting we haven't heard from himself on the matter, it was just agents, rumours and stuff (correct me if I'm wrong of course). We don't really know what made him make the reported decision to leave. Well, maybe I'm too subjective on the matter, since he was one of my favourites lately, maybe he really sold us out for a better money or challenge move elsewhere, I don't know. So be it then, good riddance. But can we blame him alot? On one hand of course, he fails the hopes of the fans, but on the other, as nomade pointed out well, it's a players job, and if you get a better job, you take it. We can't expect everyone to be loyal.

That aside, let's return to the main point. As I said, I'm for the homegrown thing but I have to admit that since I'm not Italian and not from Rome either, I'm also as much for the Arsene Wenger philosophy, that passport is not important. What matters is how you play football and how commited are you to the team.

I think the problem is not in the fact how much of Italians and how much foreigners you have, but how they identify with the team. For example Lazio and Argentinian players have a great common past, therefore I would be glad the same if we signed Zarate or a similar Italian player. Another thing is that it shouldn't get out of hand - in the way that you have too much of one or the other. If we had 11 of 11 foreigners in the starting line-up that would be strange, the same as we had 11 Italians and never signed foreigners.

I guess it's about keeping the balance and getting the right people. And signing's Italians shouldn't be a priority (especially when we haven't been doing so good lately), it should be like a plus. If we can get a great foreigner then good, if we can get an equally good Roman/Italian for the same price then that's even better.

For me Lazio isn't just a team from Rome/Lazio region/Italy/Europe, it's much "higher" than that. I guess the picture we have on the top of the page tells the story in some way.
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Caxi
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:59 pm

well said Magnoem, nothing I really disagree with there. I would say that's the majority of people's opinion.
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Laziophilic
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:51 am

it is complex one, even I have to disagree about Arsenal philosphy that is bringing foreign players to the club, one of Arsenal fans told me the Arsne had changed the club to a multinational side in which it is so rare to find english players even in their young ranks. Just look to them this year, it is hard to believe that Helb, Flamini, and maybe Adebayor are leaving the club for a bigger salary even though Arsenal is capable of challenging for titles with their current squad! My point is that if their is a younger english player who raised with the club early on the more you will find him attached and committed to the club later on like Gerrard, Totti, Xavi, Maldini, Raul....etc with their respective clubs, On the other side it is too rare to see a foreigner attached to his club for a long time. Players like J Zanetti and Giggs are rarely seen and thats why they are considered as legends.

I can bet everybody that we are all dreaming to have Lorenzo as our Future Capitan and the same will go for Tuia in the future as it was with Nesta in the past! You will not see the same reaction to a foreigner one! Because all what we know is that the younger italians (Lazio case) who are more Laziale the more we expect them to lead the squad and raise the values of S.S. Lazio than any one else since they are here for along time and they are expected to lead the team or to be the main refernce point to others, fans, and managment.

I think the reason is mainly to our primevara strategy, I dont see Lazio loaning young players to Serie A minors where they can mature and come back again to Lazio, But It seems their are rare exceptions like Nesta, De Silvestri, and Tuia while others are only disappered and gone away!
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Caxi
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:06 am

If you look at the CL winners of the past few seasons, a large chunk of those sides have homegrown players and maybe one or two players who are lifelong fans of their respective clubs. Since Arsenal have become almost a wholly multinational side, their success has dwindled...some may say this is due to a lack of funds with the building of the new stadium...but if they had grown english youth players, they wouldn't have to sell players like Hleb for money and players like Flamini would stay. Wenger recently admitted he would have to sell one or two top players a year for maybe 10-15 years. So maybe it would be a little foolish to want to be like them.

It's hard to find a model for us, we are in that territory were we shouldn't be looking to sell our top youth for bags of cash and then go out and buy a decent team, neither are we a side who should expect to hold onto our big youth prospects. I say we're somewhere in the middle and that is a difficult place to be, but Parma seem to have produced good talents over the last decade (aside from what I think of Cigarini and Dessena, they are talented and there have been others, Gilardino for example). Maybe that's a good model to follow, because we should have enough resources now to make sure we don't rely totally on our youth.
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LofL
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:06 am

This is a hard one too figure out and everyone will have different opinions. I do agree with the people who said we need a mix, I dont want Lazio to be a team without true dedicated italians from our youth system but to only get a player cause of his nationality is also not a good thing.

I think for now we need to do as best as possible on the pitch, from a players point of view italian players know Serie-A best and they know that Lazio is not the most attractive club at the moment. We can still sign quality foreigners so I think its best to buy the kind of players we do know and try to improve our youth program so we can start to produce more of our own players in the future.
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Darran
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:16 am

Magnoem wrote:
The issue of Behrami as a mercenary have been hung up as an example, but it's interesting we haven't heard from himself on the matter, it was just agents, rumours and stuff (correct me if I'm wrong of course). We don't really know what made him make the reported decision to leave. Well, maybe I'm too subjective on the matter, since he was one of my favourites lately, maybe he really sold us out for a better money or challenge move elsewhere, I don't know. So be it then, good riddance. But can we blame him alot? On one hand of course, he fails the hopes of the fans, but on the other, as nomade pointed out well, it's a players job, and if you get a better job, you take it. We can't expect everyone to be loyal.

When Stam left for Milan or even Oddo, I didn't blame him, I did not label him as a traitor. In fact I wished him all the best in his career and thank him for the years he spent in Lazio. But with Behrami, it is another situation altogether. He disrespected the club by using article 17, if he were to say, "Thank you Lazio for everything but I want to have a new challenge now or I want to join a bigger club", so be it, I would gladly see Behrami leave with respect intact. But he has taken it too far, I admired Behrami a lot, for his fighting spirit and determination on the pitch. He has turned into a player I look at with disgust now.
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The Big Payback
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:05 pm

Caxi wrote:
If you look at the CL winners of the past few seasons, a large chunk of those sides have homegrown players and maybe one or two players who are lifelong fans of their respective clubs. Since Arsenal have become almost a wholly multinational side, their success has dwindled...some may say this is due to a lack of funds with the building of the new stadium...but if they had grown english youth players, they wouldn't have to sell players like Hleb for money and players like Flamini would stay. Wenger recently admitted he would have to sell one or two top players a year for maybe 10-15 years. So maybe it would be a little foolish to want to be like them.

It's hard to find a model for us, we are in that territory were we shouldn't be looking to sell our top youth for bags of cash and then go out and buy a decent team, neither are we a side who should expect to hold onto our big youth prospects. I say we're somewhere in the middle and that is a difficult place to be, but Parma seem to have produced good talents over the last decade (aside from what I think of Cigarini and Dessena, they are talented and there have been others, Gilardino for example). Maybe that's a good model to follow, because we should have enough resources now to make sure we don't rely totally on our youth.

Off topic, but didn't Gilardino start at Verona?
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Goerlandt
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:26 pm

The Big Payback wrote:
Caxi wrote:
If you look at the CL winners of the past few seasons, a large chunk of those sides have homegrown players and maybe one or two players who are lifelong fans of their respective clubs. Since Arsenal have become almost a wholly multinational side, their success has dwindled...some may say this is due to a lack of funds with the building of the new stadium...but if they had grown english youth players, they wouldn't have to sell players like Hleb for money and players like Flamini would stay. Wenger recently admitted he would have to sell one or two top players a year for maybe 10-15 years. So maybe it would be a little foolish to want to be like them.

It's hard to find a model for us, we are in that territory were we shouldn't be looking to sell our top youth for bags of cash and then go out and buy a decent team, neither are we a side who should expect to hold onto our big youth prospects. I say we're somewhere in the middle and that is a difficult place to be, but Parma seem to have produced good talents over the last decade (aside from what I think of Cigarini and Dessena, they are talented and there have been others, Gilardino for example). Maybe that's a good model to follow, because we should have enough resources now to make sure we don't rely totally on our youth.

Off topic, but didn't Gilardino start at Verona?

Of course , with Hellas. What a team they had then : Gilardino, Mutu, Camoranesi, Oddo, Seric, Frey...
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usampa
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:15 pm

Darran wrote:
But with Behrami, it is another situation altogether. He disrespected the club by using article 17, if he were to say, "Thank you Lazio for everything but I want to have a new challenge now or I want to join a bigger club", so be it, I would gladly see Behrami leave with respect intact. But he has taken it too far, I admired Behrami a lot, for his fighting spirit and determination on the pitch. He has turned into a player I look at with disgust now.
Behrami didn't use A 17 yet, and maybe he will not! What a traitor then ? scratch
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Darran
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:41 pm

usampa wrote:
Darran wrote:
But with Behrami, it is another situation altogether. He disrespected the club by using article 17, if he were to say, "Thank you Lazio for everything but I want to have a new challenge now or I want to join a bigger club", so be it, I would gladly see Behrami leave with respect intact. But he has taken it too far, I admired Behrami a lot, for his fighting spirit and determination on the pitch. He has turned into a player I look at with disgust now.
Behrami didn't use A 17 yet, and maybe he will not! What a traitor then ? scratch

How many a times has he threatened to use article 17 while attempting to leave Lazio? Do you look upon Behrami as an angel just because he hasn't used it YET?
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usampa
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:35 pm

Darran wrote:
How many a times has he threatened to use article 17 while attempting to leave Lazio? Do you look upon Behrami as an angel just because he hasn't used it YET?

No, but many people have wrong idea for loyalty. I can not understand , how is possible everyone to mourn for Mudingayi and to claim how loyal and devoted to Lazio he was, after he has threatened to use A 17 as well. And by first offer, just for one day he has decided to leave us. I am not sure in number , how many times Behrami has threatened to use A 17 ? How about you, I can not rely on every flagrant news in the press, and what I see Behrami is still here and he didn't use A 17.
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Caxi
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:56 pm

Goerlandt wrote:
The Big Payback wrote:
Caxi wrote:
If you look at the CL winners of the past few seasons, a large chunk of those sides have homegrown players and maybe one or two players who are lifelong fans of their respective clubs. Since Arsenal have become almost a wholly multinational side, their success has dwindled...some may say this is due to a lack of funds with the building of the new stadium...but if they had grown english youth players, they wouldn't have to sell players like Hleb for money and players like Flamini would stay. Wenger recently admitted he would have to sell one or two top players a year for maybe 10-15 years. So maybe it would be a little foolish to want to be like them.

It's hard to find a model for us, we are in that territory were we shouldn't be looking to sell our top youth for bags of cash and then go out and buy a decent team, neither are we a side who should expect to hold onto our big youth prospects. I say we're somewhere in the middle and that is a difficult place to be, but Parma seem to have produced good talents over the last decade (aside from what I think of Cigarini and Dessena, they are talented and there have been others, Gilardino for example). Maybe that's a good model to follow, because we should have enough resources now to make sure we don't rely totally on our youth.

Off topic, but didn't Gilardino start at Verona?

Of course , with Hellas. What a team they had then : Gilardino, Mutu, Camoranesi, Oddo, Seric, Frey...

yes, but the point I was trying to illustrate was that Parma developed good talents but also found young players from other clubs and they balanced the two quite well...there are numerous names...you can start with Buffon, and didn't Frey play for them too, and that's only in the one position.

and guys, my attitude on Article 17 is that it's not nice to threaten to use it, it's not nice to use it (although in cases like Matuzalem's, I can just about see a reason) but it's inexcusable to use it when you're at such a great club, when everyone loves you there and transfer to a club of similar stature. That is just disrespectful.
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Darran
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Mon Jul 21, 2008 5:12 pm

usampa wrote:
Darran wrote:
How many a times has he threatened to use article 17 while attempting to leave Lazio? Do you look upon Behrami as an angel just because he hasn't used it YET?

No, but many people have wrong idea for loyalty. I can not understand , how is possible everyone to mourn for Mudingayi and to claim how loyal and devoted to Lazio he was, after he has threatened to use A 17 as well. And by first offer, just for one day he has decided to leave us. I am not sure in number , how many times Behrami has threatened to use A 17 ? How about you, I can not rely on every flagrant news in the press, and what I see Behrami is still here and he didn't use A 17.

Mudingayi deserves all the respect. He could have used article 17, but he didn't, he did not threaten aand has always stressed he would love to stay at Lazio. Behrami on the other hand, always wanted to leave. All this time the rumors were there, and not once did he did to squash them. And to achieve his aim, he was all too willing to use article 17 to free himself from the club which launched his career. Mudingayi just like Behrami is a professional and the former did what a professional would do, leave amicably and without strained relations. Behrami is represented by his agent, and just how many times he held Lazio by the neck? I have lost count. This is not the kind of behavior which would sit well at all with the tifosi.
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usampa
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:22 pm

Darran wrote:
Mudingayi deserves all the respect. He could have used article 17, but he didn't, he did not threaten aand has always stressed he would love to stay at Lazio.
Yeah he didn't threaten , but he just said that he would use A 17. I can not see where is the difference. He has always claimed that he want to remain, but by first offer he left. This only speaks, that maybe, maybe he hasn't been so truthful with us. But I can understand that.
On the other hand, Behrami speaks directly and plainly. He threatened to use A 17, because this is the only way to convince the stubborn head Lotito. He has desire to leave, it is his choice, and I respect him. I can understand that, but what I can not understand is why he doesn't deserve respect. He hasn't used A 17 , and it appears he will not use A 17. That why I only call for stop blaming the man for treason on that index.......
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Henrik
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:30 pm

usampa wrote:
but he just said that he would use A 17.

Please give me a source, haven't heard Mudingayi say something like that and I believe you are wrong.

I don't know what you are trying to say with your posts in here, usampa. That Behrami deserves respect after his behaviour? That we should show him respect after he threatened to leave with Article 17? Hell no.

Behrami will always have a special place in my heart after his derby goal, but I can't show him respect for this. It's disgusting.
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usampa
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:34 am

Henrik wrote:
usampa wrote:
but he just said that he would use A 17.
Please give me a source, haven't heard Mudingayi say something like that and I believe you are wrong.

There is no way you have missed something like that. Source ? I have read this in Piaza della Liberta once. I am trying to say, that we should stop reiterating and accusing that Behra did use A 17, because he didn't. It is very simple....
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Darran
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:25 am

usampa wrote:
Darran wrote:
Mudingayi deserves all the respect. He could have used article 17, but he didn't, he did not threaten aand has always stressed he would love to stay at Lazio.
Yeah he didn't threaten , but he just said that he would use A 17. I can not see where is the difference. He has always claimed that he want to remain, but by first offer he left. This only speaks, that maybe, maybe he hasn't been so truthful with us. But I can understand that.
On the other hand, Behrami speaks directly and plainly. He threatened to use A 17, because this is the only way to convince the stubborn head Lotito. He has desire to leave, it is his choice, and I respect him. I can understand that, but what I can not understand is why he doesn't deserve respect. He hasn't used A 17 , and it appears he will not use A 17. That why I only call for stop blaming the man for treason on that index.......

I second Weninho. He had the possibility but he did not threaten Lazio with it, he did not say he wanted to use the article 17. Mudingayi is a professional, it was obvious he would not have many games to play and for the sake of his career, it was better to part ways. True, Behrami has the choice to leave BUT doing it through threats of using article 17, I cannot swallow. In any case, let's see whether or not he uses article 17 in the coming days. West Ham also do not want the usage of article 17 to happen. Based on the threats alone, I won't miss Behrami one bit. I will respect players who have always respected Lazio instead.
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Caxi
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:29 am

how come all of a sudden people are suggesting Behrami has yet to use Article 17? this may be the case, but the majority of reports I've read is that he used it at the end of June, when he was able to, but West Ham are not willing to take advantage of this, just in case Lotito drags Behrami to court. of course this may not be the case and nobody really knows, but we can't judge Behrami on media reports.

in my opinion, Behrami has been very clever about the whole thing by keeping quiet and getting his agent to do all the talking. there's only one reason why he would keep quiet to me...he's guilty...but we'll see.
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Caput Mundi
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:22 am

Weninho wrote:
I do, however, agree with him on some parts. I think the signing of Pinzi is not just a question about whether he or Fernandez would be more loyal, but rather the boost that it would give to the curva, the stadio and for our whole organisation. It would be a clear message, saying "let's GO, we're Lazio, constructed by Lazialitá, and we never give up". And I don't doubt for a second that the curva would love to see Lazio with the kinds of Pinzi rather than foreigners. I'm one of them, even if I'm not in the curva neither an Italian. It would give us something to be even more proud of, a Lazio of Lazialitá, and something I'm pretty sure most would have supported. And as long as the Curva is happy, Lazio is happy, simple mathematic. Morever, I think signings like Pinzi and Rossutto instead of say Fernandez and Kozak, would also bring our current talents close to the club.

yes exactly. GRAZIE!!

this is what I meant and probably the guy who started the topic. We need a Lazio we can relate to. he identity of the club is just as important as winning matches.

how can we call ourselves the pride of Rome if we have so little romans in the team and now have part of the club based in Valmontone?? Lazio is the first team of Roma, and we must never forget our roots in the city. At the moment only De Silvestri, Firmani and the Curva Nord give us that.

Lazialita` means a lot to me.

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El Piojo
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:41 am

Haha.
After five pages of debate regarding Behrami's loyalty, two post finally return to the main topic!
Fantastic!

And yes, Weninho and c. testa, you have understood me correctly.
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Caxi
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:12 pm

well, I guess the 5 pages of Behrami shows what is the current concern for most of us, but yes, i'm sure there's nobody in this forum who would go up in arms if we saw more lazialita at the club.

in saying that, coming from Ireland, where every sportsman and woman represents his or her own region, and as proud as I am to see those guys fight for the place they live and love, it is also a bit dull because you find the same team wins year after year, more often than not. passion is fine, but I would like to be entertained too and I guess that's what guys like Zarate will bring to Lazio this season. but yes, more lazialita is always welcome.
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Caput Mundi
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:31 pm

but no one said Zarate shouldn't be signed. of course we sign the quality foreigners like Zarate and Carrizo!! they are here because (by our standards) they are fuoriclasse. they add something to the team that we don't have

its the average foreigners in our team that add nothing special that should not be here. in their place we could just as well sign a laziale with a lot of passion for the club.

why can we not have a Lazio with a squad of majority Italians, 3-4 Laziali and then topped off with the quality foriegners of Zarate class. I think that is the winning Lazio formula - the team will win matches and the Curva and fans will be happy, which equals a successful Lazio.

I look at Napoli who have a bit more money than us, but still in a similar situation. they are trying to sign every napoletano, Di Natale, Foggia, Quagliarella, Cannavaro, all these guys want to play there. I dont think all of them will obviously, but a team that represents the city in this way, and is the 3rd most supported in italy, there must be a connection.

I hope you all understand me, its not an easy idea to explain.

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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:43 am

I think Lotito doesn't buy homegrown players like Pinzi, Russotto etc for a simple reason. He doesn't want a new "scenario Di Canio". He won't take the risk to go into a feud with a bandiera (like Di Canio) and become even more impopular by the fans. It's a real no good situation.
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Laziale since : 1998
Registration date : 2008-05-23

PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:14 am

Namortsac wrote:
I think Lotito doesn't buy homegrown players like Pinzi, Russotto etc for a simple reason. He doesn't want a new "scenario Di Canio". He won't take the risk to go into a feud with a bandiera (like Di Canio) and become even more impopular by the fans. It's a real no good situation.

Treat them like pros, they will have nothing to whine about. But no that's too difficult for Lotito...
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ClockworkOrange
Curva Maestrelli
Curva Maestrelli


Number of posts : 123
Age : 39
Country and city : Sweden, Mariestad
Laziale since : 1998
Registration date : 2008-06-25

PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:58 pm

c. testa wrote:
its the average foreigners in our team that add nothing special that should not be here. in their place we could just as well sign a laziale with a lot of passion for the club.

why can we not have a Lazio with a squad of majority Italians, 3-4 Laziali and then topped off with the quality foriegners of Zarate class. I think that is the winning Lazio formula - the team will win matches and the Curva and fans will be happy, which equals a successful Lazio.

Totally agree ... that's the Lazio I want
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PostSubject: Re: Where are we going?   Today at 11:15 pm

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